Open Science Discussin about GOD's Existence

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
Nithash
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Open Science Discussin about GOD's Existence

Post by Nithash »

Hi,

My name is Nitesh ( pronounced as Nithash ), and I am a Bridge Design Engineer in USA. My age is 25 and till now emotionally I have been going through a lot of problems. I know many people have experienced problems in different ways as life presents itself to us, but the good thing is the more I was in problems the more I questioned GOD why is he doing this to me and why not others? These questions one after one piled up in my mind and I started to find the solution ( I won't reveal everything in my first post but I look forward to discuss major things with big people of the world in this forum ).

Just as how a research happens in engineering, lets present the existence of god discussion in the same way. In engineering, if some scientist proposes a new theory than there will be more than 50% people opposing it and that's how we argue fight and come to a peaceful conclusion. But when it comes to existence of GOD and what Jesus did for us, almost 90% of people say GOD is there and Jesus sacrificed for us. I am not saying they didn't, but lets start with a theory that GOD doesn't exist and I will pose three questions why he isn't there -

The three questions are as follows:

1.) When God is eternal and he planted good in all of us, why do we as humans enjoy doing the sinful activities more than doing good things. Eg:- As a teenager, he commits adultery and enjoys it ( its a sinful act). More than 90% of married men/women will see an another woman/man lustfully other than their partners and we enjoy it.

So according to God, these are sinful acts and we shouldn't like them but we do.

2.) If I was God and given an opportunity to design humans, I would design everyone equally with no less or more and good in all hearts. Accordingly I believe God did the same with us, but we still have racism in our hearts and dislike to certain kids of people or things. Why do we hate each other based on physical appearances and over all why does God in the first place create black white brown people. Isn't he creating a chaos by doing this?

3.) Our heart and brain tells us that if everything is perfectly designed well than it will work fantastically, than why does God intentionally introduce the imperfection into every life. No human being is perfect - some are intelligent, some are beautiful and some are leaders. Why this dis-similarities?

Now that you have read the question, please don't pose me a question back to answer this question. A question is not the solution of another question. Lets figure out the God's existence by discussion and life experience of different people here. Personally I am not christian but I believe there is one creator - so lets stop discriminating cultures and use LOGIC, PHILOSOPHY, SCIENCE & more importantly WISDOM to solve or know who GOD is and what's his purpose?

*Funny Thing - I hope everyone believes that in past, men were more demanding over women and they were considered superior in the society, does this have anything to do with saying that God is male and not female?*

As said I am 25 and hoping so you will excuse me if I spoke anything wrong/ offensive/ angrily. Thank you for your time and I look forward for your reply. y@};-
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Re: Open Science Discussin about GOD's Existence

Post by Kurieuo »

Nithash wrote:Hi,

My name is Nitesh ( pronounced as Nithash ), and I am a Bridge Design Engineer in USA. My age is 25 and till now emotionally I have been going through a lot of problems. I know many people have experienced problems in different ways as life presents itself to us, but the good thing is the more I was in problems the more I questioned GOD why is he doing this to me and why not others? These questions one after one piled up in my mind and I started to find the solution ( I won't reveal everything in my first post but I look forward to discuss major things with big people of the world in this forum ).

Just as how a research happens in engineering, lets present the existence of god discussion in the same way. In engineering, if some scientist proposes a new theory than there will be more than 50% people opposing it and that's how we argue fight and come to a peaceful conclusion. But when it comes to existence of GOD and what Jesus did for us, almost 90% of people say GOD is there and Jesus sacrificed for us. I am not saying they didn't, but lets start with a theory that GOD doesn't exist and I will pose three questions why he isn't there -

The three questions are as follows:

1.) When God is eternal and he planted good in all of us, why do we as humans enjoy doing the sinful activities more than doing good things. Eg:- As a teenager, he commits adultery and enjoys it ( its a sinful act). More than 90% of married men/women will see an another woman/man lustfully other than their partners and we enjoy it.

So according to God, these are sinful acts and we shouldn't like them but we do.
God gave us a freedom to make moral decisions, to either love or hate others in a world with boundaries that restrict the level of evil and suffering one can inflict.

Where there are designed pleasures, they are to be enjoyed. However, the pleasures intended for a certain design can be corrupted albeit still be enjoyed by us without fulfilling that design. It doesn't mean it is good, and more often than not natural consequences will occur. Take a married couple who cheats. They'll likely go through great stress, if they share wealth it'll likely need dividing, a house, kids and custody, alimony and the like.

People are short-sighted in their freedoms. They fail to understand the intended design. Have lack of self-control and the like. But, God made a way to deal with "sin", though we freely choose to commit actions that God detests.
2.) If I was God and given an opportunity to design humans, I would design everyone equally with no less or more and good in all hearts. Accordingly I believe God did the same with us, but we still have racism in our hearts and dislike to certain kids of people or things. Why do we hate each other based on physical appearances and over all why does God in the first place create black white brown people. Isn't he creating a chaos by doing this?
Is "good" built into a robot -- or simply behavioural programming? I'd challenge that "moral good" is something that can be designed into a free-thinking sentient being. God can install moral guides, for example, set a moral compass in our hearts... but it doesn't mean we can't ignore it to pursue immoral pleasures.
3.) Our heart and brain tells us that if everything is perfectly designed well than it will work fantastically, than why does God intentionally introduce the imperfection into every life. No human being is perfect - some are intelligent, some are beautiful and some are leaders. Why this dis-similarities?
This world is not perfectly designed for the optimum happiness or optimum everything good that can be had. This world is a method God uses to sift out those who love Him from those who do not. It is a place where we can make decisions that transform our character and who we are. It is a place where our actions done for or against other eternal beings have lasting consequences in the world hereafter. It is a place where God can refine us into the beings we will eternally be. It is a prelude to the next world God intends for us.
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Re: Open Science Discussin about GOD's Existence

Post by Nithash »

Hi Kurieuo,

Thank you for the reply. The solution you gave me fore the third question appropriately suits the existence of God and how he works, in fact it can also be the answer my second question of why things are different in this world.

To summarize the answer to the first question, you said "There are consequences if we commit sinful activities". Let me give you an example and discuss about it, "A poor man struggled all his life with money, career, power and women. Many people around him cursed him, made fun of him and enjoyed while the poor man accepted the fate and struggled. So if the same poor man is born as a handsome son to one of the billionaire in his next life and now that he's got everything, lets say he will start enjoying things. So tobe more precise if the poor man in his previous life never had sex and in his present future life he started sleeping with new girl everyday - Is it considered a sin by God? (keeping in mind the fact that he was rejected, hurt'ed by women in his previous life though he tried to love women"

Sorry if I am deviating the topic from existence of God to how God works, because if I knew how God works than I can apply the principles in to my daily life and see the result. The result will later tell me whether God is watching me or not and hence I can share my experience here which can make me prove God existence ultimately.
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Re: Open Science Discussin about GOD's Existence

Post by Kurieuo »

Nithash wrote:Hi Kurieuo,

Thank you for the reply. The solution you gave me fore the third question appropriately suits the existence of God and how he works, in fact it can also be the answer my second question of why things are different in this world.

To summarize the answer to the first question, you said "There are consequences if we commit sinful activities". Let me give you an example and discuss about it, "A poor man struggled all his life with money, career, power and women. Many people around him cursed him, made fun of him and enjoyed while the poor man accepted the fate and struggled. So if the same poor man is born as a handsome son to one of the billionaire in his next life and now that he's got everything, lets say he will start enjoying things. So tobe more precise if the poor man in his previous life never had sex and in his present future life he started sleeping with new girl everyday - Is it considered a sin by God? (keeping in mind the fact that he was rejected, hurt'ed by women in his previous life though he tried to love women"

Sorry if I am deviating the topic from existence of God to how God works, because if I knew how God works than I can apply the principles in to my daily life and see the result. The result will later tell me whether God is watching me or not and hence I can share my experience here which can make me prove God existence ultimately.
To qualify your reiteration of what I said, more often than not there are natural consequences (repercussions) for doing moral wrong. Not always, but generally speaking.

Most people believe in a general principle of karma, that is, what you reap you'll sow. If you help others, others will help you. If you wrong others, expect the same at some point in your life. It's almost like a general principle written into the fabric of the universe and many of all beliefs including Atheists will often acknowledge karma in casual conversation. Of course, it doesn't always hold, but generally so...

My response was more on our freedom to choose. God installed a moral compass within us so we can determine right from wrong. Unlike say a dog who just obeys whatever his master commands, or a cat which just goes about its day as it pleases. God cannot install "moral good" in us from the get go, because such overrides our freedom to choose. In fact, if God made us "good" so that we can commit no wrong acts, then we are not being good since we're determined to be such a way and "we" have no say in the matter. Good actions can only exist if we are free to choose good over bad, right from wrong. Indeed, the greatest good many desire in life -- love -- can only exist if one has the freedom to choose to respond out of love.

I'm sure everyone at some point in life wanted to cast a spell on another they may have had a crush on to fall in love with them. Yet, if you could cast a spell on another, their love wouldn't be true. It's not authentic because they didn't really choose to love you. You cast a spell on them to "love" you. They might feel they love you but you know it was just your spell. Similarly, God can't create us to love Him, we must be free to respond on our own accord.

So if God implanted good in us (let's say this good is a moral compass to largely know right from wrong), unless God gives us a freedom to make moral/immoral choices then we a neither good or bad. But the moment God gives us the freedom to make moral/immoral choices, then our responses show whether we're good or bad.

And this is the crux of the story of Adam and Eve. Without God giving them an opportunity to commit an act against Himself, then it could have been God just created them to be. But God wanted more than that. In God's creation, He wanted them to love Him back out of their own free accord. So He setup a basic test to not eat from the tree. God could have said not to pick up a certain stick for all it mattered. Then upon their first chance to show their love for God, they revealed their rebellion and desire to go against God, and even a desire to be God's equal - God's rival. And humanity has followed suit ever since.

I believe that deals with your first question... so to now respond to your scenario in your last post:
Let me give you an example and discuss about it, "A poor man struggled all his life with money, career, power and women. Many people around him cursed him, made fun of him and enjoyed while the poor man accepted the fate and struggled. So if the same poor man is born as a handsome son to one of the billionaire in his next life and now that he's got everything, lets say he will start enjoying things. So tobe more precise if the poor man in his previous life never had sex and in his present future life he started sleeping with new girl everyday - Is it considered a sin by God? (keeping in mind the fact that he was rejected, hurt'ed by women in his previous life though he tried to love women"
Sin exists when it is actualised, so the man sinned by sleeping around. He sinned against all those girls he used for his own sexual gratification. God doesn't want us to live selfishly in pursuit of our own lives, but Christ taught to love others as we do ourselves. If the man truly loves those women, then he'd put their needs first and perhaps find them a decent husband rather than simply taking advantage of them.

Furthermore, wrong others commit against us might make wrongs we do understandable, but they do not cancel our own wrongful actions out. A serial killer might be so, because of tragic physical and sexual degrading by their parents upon them as a child -- which wore away at the moral fabric within them somuchso that they became psychopaths without empathy for others nor any care for right and wrong. But this does not justify the crimes of the serial killer. Makes it understandable how a serial killer might be the way they are, but such circumstances do not justify them.

You've probably heard the saying, "To those whom much is given, much is expected." According to Christ, God expects the same of us. Read over Matthew 25.

Something I'd like to ask you is why whether something is a "sin" important to you? People focus on the wrong question when they ask whether or not something is a "sin". Such shows a pettiness in wanting to be innocent of guilt. Regardless of whether or not some particular action is/isn't a sin, no doubt we've done much wrong regardless. Even the poor man in your story would have done much wrong.

So the question is more, have you ever done anything wrong? I've done wrong. And once you've done something wrong, there is nothing you can do to undo that wrong. It is there forever in the fabric of time past as a blemish. Try to clean yourself of it as you might, there is nothing that can undo the reality and consequences of your wrong once committed. So if God exists, and God is fully righteous, then God's only recourse is to punish me. Have never done anything wrong? For I have done wrong, and more than once. Try as I might to make amends, I'm tainted - and God's righteous nature means I deserve nothing less than God's righteous wrath.
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Re: Open Science Discussin about GOD's Existence

Post by 1over137 »

Nithash wrote: Sorry if I am deviating the topic from existence of God to how God works, because if I knew how God works than I can apply the principles in to my daily life and see the result. The result will later tell me whether God is watching me or not and hence I can share my experience here which can make me prove God existence ultimately.
Apologies for jumping in, but following is on my heart:
Nithash, I believe that one great hint of God's existence is watching nonbelievers and real Christians and see whether and how much cynism is there among them. God transfroms our hearts and helps us grow. We grow in love, joy, peace, gentleness, goodness, patience, etc. You are 25 and you can look back at your own life and see whether God was working in your life and heart. I myself am 28 and see than God was indeed working in me.

Peace,
Hana
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart
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Re: Open Science Discussin about GOD's Existence

Post by jlay »

2.) If I was God and given an opportunity to design humans, I would design everyone equally with no less or more and good in all hearts. Accordingly I believe God did the same with us, but we still have racism in our hearts and dislike to certain kids of people or things. Why do we hate each other based on physical appearances and over all why does God in the first place create black white brown people. Isn't he creating a chaos by doing this?
I'm sure we've all had the "If I were God...' moments. But what perspective do we have compared to an eternal, transcendent, and omniscient being. Very little if any.
The reason we hate is self centeredness. Self is the source of all evil. Are people born racist? No, it is a learned behavior, which seeks to promote oneself at the expense of another.
To summarize the answer to the first question, you said "There are consequences if we commit sinful activities". Let me give you an example and discuss about it, "A poor man struggled all his life with money, career, power and women. Many people around him cursed him, made fun of him and enjoyed while the poor man accepted the fate and struggled. So if the same poor man is born as a handsome son to one of the billionaire in his next life and now that he's got everything, lets say he will start enjoying things. So tobe more precise if the poor man in his previous life never had sex and in his present future life he started sleeping with new girl everyday - Is it considered a sin by God? (keeping in mind the fact that he was rejected, hurt'ed by women in his previous life though he tried to love women"
What do you mean by previous life, and how do you think that question presents itself to Christians, who do not beleive in such things?
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

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Re: Open Science Discussin about GOD's Existence

Post by BryanH »

1*****
jlay wrote:I'm sure we've all had the "If I were God...' moments. But what perspective do we have compared to an eternal, transcendent, and omniscient being. Very little if any.
The reason we hate is self centeredness. Self is the source of all evil. Are people born racist? No, it is a learned behavior, which seeks to promote oneself at the expense of another.
2*****
Kurieuo wrote:This world is a method God uses to sift out those who love Him from those who do not. It is a place where we can make decisions that transform our character and who we are. It is a place where our actions done for or against other eternal beings have lasting consequences in the world hereafter. It is a place where God can refine us into the beings we will eternally be. It is a prelude to the next world God intends for us.

So an almighty, all-'everything' being creates people and then puts them to test to "REFINE" us and she who is more deserving for the afterlife. What's the point of that? What's the point for an eternal, transcendent, and omniscient being to create clearly inferior beings and then put them to test? God controls both good and evil, but as you present it here, he wants US to choose only good in order for "have a place reserved in the garden of heaven".

If you behave yourself, I will give you divine candy. Seems like behavior conditioning to me, especially related to creating obedience to authority.

I don't need to remind you what Hitler wanted to do: create the perfect race by selecting certain characteristics found in only a fraction of humans. The rest would be classified as worthless and used to serve the others or just disposed of and sent to the "afterlife".

Basically God doesn't care about you as an individual that has preferences/needs/desires/dreams/aspirations, but he wants you to follow a certain path in life if you want of course to be part of his great plan.

As long as your preferences/needs/desires/dreams/aspirations coincide with the given frame you are alright. If not, well, the eternal flames of hell will be your "punishment". And by the way let's not forget that Satan is at his origin a fallen angel. Why hasn't God given him the opportunity for redemption? Guess he wasn't good enough for the great plan God has.
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Re: Open Science Discussin about GOD's Existence

Post by jlay »

BryanH wrote:
So an almighty, all-'everything' being creates people and then puts them to test to "REFINE" us and she who is more deserving for the afterlife. What's the point of that? What's the point for an eternal, transcendent, and omniscient being to create clearly inferior beings and then put them to test?
Your statemene here is laced with prejudicial assumptions. You assume there is a 'test'. I would say that a believer being 'tested' is not saying that life is a test. Unbelievers aren't tested.
Regarding inferior beings. If an eternal, transcendent being creates any being, then the created being is by nature, 'inferior.' There is no other logical conclusion. So, What are you arguing for or against here?
God controls both good and evil, but as you present it here, he wants US to choose only good in order for "have a place reserved in the garden of heaven".

I think you would find many different opinions on what God "controls." IMO, i would say contingencies in creation do not make the creator contingent.
Redemption is far more than choosing good. It is a creator accomplishing what the created can not. In that perspective the choice is easy. Choose life.
If you behave yourself, I will give you divine candy. Seems like behavior conditioning to me, especially related to creating obedience to authority.
Not sure what religion you are picking on here, but it certainly isn't biblical Christianity.
I don't need to remind you what Hitler wanted to do: create the perfect race by selecting certain characteristics found in only a fraction of humans. The rest would be classified as worthless and used to serve the others or just disposed of and sent to the "afterlife".
Huh? What are you driving at here?
Basically God doesn't care about you as an individual that has preferences/needs/desires/dreams/aspirations, but he wants you to follow a certain path in life if you want of course to be part of his great plan.
If God didn't care about anyone as an individual then there would be no cross, or access to mercy and grace. This is a foolish statement that shows you have a completely wrong notion of what you are arguing against. You are arguing against a perspective of god, which you have conceived in your mind. The problem is this "god" only exists in your mind.
As long as your preferences/needs/desires/dreams/aspirations coincide with the given frame you are alright. If not, well, the eternal flames of hell will be your "punishment". And by the way let's not forget that Satan is at his origin a fallen angel. Why hasn't God given him the opportunity for redemption? Guess he wasn't good enough for the great plan God has.
I think you blew up your entire post with the last question. The real question should be, "Why did He offer you redemption?" Through this muddled mess, you still somehow conclude that the God of creation has offered YOU redemption. Yet you shake your ungrateful fist in His face and say you can't understand why He would send people to Hell. Open your eyes. God's not asking for your performance, or to pass a test, or even live up to a moral standard. He is simply asking you to trust the life and work of Jesus Christ. Apart from the that, the rest is worthless. Repent (abandon foolish thinking) and believe.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
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Re: Open Science Discussin about GOD's Existence

Post by Kurieuo »

jlay wrote:
BryanH wrote:
So an almighty, all-'everything' being creates people and then puts them to test to "REFINE" us and she who is more deserving for the afterlife. What's the point of that? What's the point for an eternal, transcendent, and omniscient being to create clearly inferior beings and then put them to test?
Your statemene here is laced with prejudicial assumptions. You assume there is a 'test'. I would say that a believer being 'tested' is not saying that life is a test. Unbelievers aren't tested.
Regarding inferior beings. If an eternal, transcendent being creates any being, then the created being is by nature, 'inferior.' There is no other logical conclusion. So, What are you arguing for or against here?
God controls both good and evil, but as you present it here, he wants US to choose only good in order for "have a place reserved in the garden of heaven".

I think you would find many different opinions on what God "controls." IMO, i would say contingencies in creation do not make the creator contingent.
Redemption is far more than choosing good. It is a creator accomplishing what the created can not. In that perspective the choice is easy. Choose life.
If you behave yourself, I will give you divine candy. Seems like behavior conditioning to me, especially related to creating obedience to authority.
Not sure what religion you are picking on here, but it certainly isn't biblical Christianity.
Amen. I'm not even going to dignify a response given how strawmanish this poster's conception of Christianity is.

It'll always puzzle me why people like this post without trying to understand. Am I smelling a troll?
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Re: Open Science Discussin about GOD's Existence

Post by PaulSacramento »

I think that it is a very common ploy for a skeptic to created their own understanding of God and then shoot THAT view full of holes.
I see them do this with doctrines like Grace and Christ's sacrifice for Us also.
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Re: Open Science Discussin about GOD's Existence

Post by PaulSacramento »

.) When God is eternal and he planted good in all of us, why do we as humans enjoy doing the sinful activities more than doing good things. Eg:- As a teenager, he commits adultery and enjoys it ( its a sinful act). More than 90% of married men/women will see an another woman/man lustfully other than their partners and we enjoy it
You sure about that?
Personally I enjoy doing what is right far more than doing what is wrong and I think so do you.
So according to God, these are sinful acts and we shouldn't like them but we do.

That is a blanket statement that is far more complex than you are making it out to be.
2.) If I was God and given an opportunity to design humans, I would design everyone equally with no less or more and good in all hearts. Accordingly I believe God did the same with us, but we still have racism in our hearts and dislike to certain kids of people or things. Why do we hate each other based on physical appearances and over all why does God in the first place create black white brown people. Isn't he creating a chaos by doing this?
If God designed us with free will and the capacity to know both right and wrong, there is no reason or logic behind the view that we should all be "equal".
3.) Our heart and brain tells us that if everything is perfectly designed well than it will work fantastically, than why does God intentionally introduce the imperfection into every life. No human being is perfect - some are intelligent, some are beautiful and some are leaders. Why this dis-similarities?
Where in earth did you get the notion that our hearts and brains tell us that OR that God introduced imperfection ??
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Re: Open Science Discussin about GOD's Existence

Post by Nithash »

Kurieuo - So when we have the freedom to choose from why did Jesus forgive so many sinners when he came up on to earth? Why weren't those humans who sinned go through the process of repent done? Sometime it looks giving more freedom ruins the society like whats happening in USA right now - example no one is interested to study.

So Kurieuo, do we suffer only the sinned deeds done in our past lives or do we suffer what had done in present life? Does Sin change from person to person, like my friend fell in love with 25 girls and slept with all 25 girls. I feel that as a sin because he wasn't married to any one, but he doesn't consider nor feel a bit in his heart that he made a big sin. In fact he is more happy than I am. Some times I am jealous and some time I hate myself because I consider that as a sin and run away from girls - why are we different? Does this has anything to do with the mistakes I did in my past life?

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Hi Hana,

True hana. I have seen God do many things in my life and I always get to see the reason later but at the same time there are equal situations where God didn't do any thing for me and it felt like he didn't existed or else may be I haven't seen the reason for his acts yet. This is what rises the question inside me always - Is he there or not? Does he control everything and each tiny particle or else he only cares for the legendary things?

Doesn't Christianity teach about past lifes? Every culture has a part about past deeds done in our present or future life and how they impact the current time.

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Hi Bryan,

I agree, self is the source of all evil. But God introduced the concept of survival too and for surviving people become selfish. When God knew this why does he implemented survival into the concept of living beings? I was never told by anyone that racism is a learned behavior, is it true? I still can't digest this - if it is true than may be I wasn't taught good in my kindergarten.

As Bible and every holy book in the world tells that based on your acts you will be directed to heaven or hell. This sounds really good, but has any one ever thought that this concept of going to heaven and hell sounds like a mom telling to her child that the burglar will come if he doesn't do his home work or vice-versa. I don't feel this after death concept of God would be so simple based on his complicated mind and what he has all designed around us and with-in.

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Hi Jlay,

What do you mean unbelievers aren't tested? Does that mean from tomorrow I can say I don't believe in God and I can start doing all the bad things in this world I like and still be free from God testing. Because I know when God tests me its nothing but pain and tragedy, He wants me to face it and come out of it. If I don't want this testing, pain or tragedy from God than better everyone be a non-believer.

Christianity says - believe, pray and love God so you will eventually come out of your sins and live a truthful God's life. Does this mean if I did sins and than started praying for God, will he stop testing me as I started believing in him or else will he make me suffer the wrong things I did no matter if I started loving him or not? This is the huge major difference I saw in Eastern culture and Western Culture -

According to eastern culture, Most people believe that if we did some thing wrong or hurt someone than we will be punished by God at some point in our life(s) and this balances the things. This fear of facing any future problems makes us not to do wrong things or hurt anyone currently. But Western culture, totally stressed on belief in God and love for him - they don't talk about punishing but talk about redemption. For example - If someone has done a sin and he's not punished and in fact he's saved by Jesus than its human nature that he will do the sin again and say I will start believing in God from now. So keeps on hurting people and going to church every sunday, I feel this is what happens when people aren't shown the fear of their acts - Do you agree?

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Hi PaulSacramento,

Yes I am 100% sure humans like certain things which are immoral? You said you enjoy doing the right things but based on what do you clarify what is right and wrong. I like to be jealous and overly conservative on the girl I like and I feel its right because the output will be the girl is forced to be with me - but according to God its an act of jealous and selfishness. Hence its wrong and I feel it to be right, so haven't I committed a sin in God's law ?
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Kurieuo
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Re: Open Science Discussin about GOD's Existence

Post by Kurieuo »

Nithash wrote:Kurieuo - So when we have the freedom to choose from why did Jesus forgive so many sinners when he came up on to earth? Why weren't those humans who sinned go through the process of repent done? Sometime it looks giving more freedom ruins the society like whats happening in USA right now - example no one is interested to study.

So Kurieuo, do we suffer only the sinned deeds done in our past lives or do we suffer what had done in present life? Does Sin change from person to person, like my friend fell in love with 25 girls and slept with all 25 girls. I feel that as a sin because he wasn't married to any one, but he doesn't consider nor feel a bit in his heart that he made a big sin. In fact he is more happy than I am. Some times I am jealous and some time I hate myself because I consider that as a sin and run away from girls - why are we different? Does this has anything to do with the mistakes I did in my past life?
Perhaps this is a language barrier, or cultural, but I'm not sure I'm understanding you.

Specifically, I don't understand your questions in the first paragraph. I can make some sense of them I suppose, but neither do I get the point. Nor would I agree with what you say about noone in the USA being interested to study. It seems to me you're being here quite arrogant towards another nation. Regarding your second paragraph, you have examined Christianity enough to understand Christians don't believe is past lives correct?

Perhaps you'd be better off spending some time examining Christian beliefs, especially if it is something that interests you.
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Re: Open Science Discussin about GOD's Existence

Post by PaulSacramento »

Hi PaulSacramento,

Yes I am 100% sure humans like certain things which are immoral? You said you enjoy doing the right things but based on what do you clarify what is right and wrong. I like to be jealous and overly conservative on the girl I like and I feel its right because the output will be the girl is forced to be with me - but according to God its an act of jealous and selfishness. Hence its wrong and I feel it to be right, so haven't I committed a sin in God's law ?
Greetings dude :)
Don't confuse "instant gratification" with what you said, you said that humans enjoy doing what is wrong MORE than what is right and I disagree.
Sure humans like doing what is wrong/immoral and some like it because it IS wrong, that is part of our fallen state.
BUT pretty much every human ( outside those with issues of course) prefers to do what is right.
Lets look at sex.
Outside of sex related issues, the majority of people prefer sex in a monogamous relationship UNLESS that relationship is not fulfilling.
Ask any cheater and they will say that the guilt felt after a liaison is very real ( again outside those with some mental health issues).
Being in a healthy and correct relationship with a great sex life is by far MUCH BETTER than being in an unhealthy sexual relationship that just has "more sex".

Christ's admonishment about "committing adultery in the heart" is ban on because if we allow those feelings in we are just a step away from acting on them.
A man the lusts after a woman that he is not in a committed relationship with just for the purpose of sex is setting himself up for a world of hurt ( and the woman too) and that type of lifestyle is very unhealthy and deep down that person knows it ( barring mental issues of course) and yes, we ALL do it, we are human and that is part of our sin BUT being aware of it and that it is wrong and not acting on it is what makes us truly Human.
We are all tempted by sin, it is what we do with that temptation that matters.
Another example:
A guy cheats on his wife because he has an "obsession" with leather and his wife thinks that it is weird, so he cheats and he feels like crap about it, even though the moment was great for him ( instant gratification), He is happy in the MOMENT but at the expense of a far better happiness because IF he could do what he did with some stranger with his wife, we would be far happier than having done it with a stranger.
Know what I mean?
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Re: Open Science Discussin about GOD's Existence

Post by jlay »

Hi Jlay,

What do you mean unbelievers aren't tested? Does that mean from tomorrow I can say I don't believe in God and I can start doing all the bad things in this world I like and still be free from God testing. Because I know when God tests me its nothing but pain and tragedy, He wants me to face it and come out of it. If I don't want this testing, pain or tragedy from God than better everyone be a non-believer.
I do not agree, nor do I think the Bible supports that life is a test. I do believe (and there is scriptural support) that believers face many tests (trial is probably a better word.). The Bible says that God doesn't tempt. (James 1:13,14)
Christianity says - believe, pray and love God so you will eventually come out of your sins and live a truthful God's life. Does this mean if I did sins and than started praying for God, will he stop testing me as I started believing in him or else will he make me suffer the wrong things I did no matter if I started loving him or not? This is the huge major difference I saw in Eastern culture and Western Culture -
I would strongly recommend reading "Jesus among other Gods" by Ravi Zacharias if you want to undertand Christianity from someone who grew up in Eastern culture. Here is a link to a free excerpt. http://www.amazon.com/dp/0849943272/?ta ... 0849943272
I think it's important to understand that all religions, when you get down to it, are all claiming to be exclusive. Some are just more veiled about it than others. Afterall, you can't claim truth and then claim that contradictory views are also just another path to truth. I would say the law of non-contradiction is one of the biggest barriers between Eastern and Western thought. I'd recommend reading up on it, if you want to understand more.
According to eastern culture, Most people believe that if we did some thing wrong or hurt someone than we will be punished by God at some point in our life(s) and this balances the things. This fear of facing any future problems makes us not to do wrong things or hurt anyone currently. But Western culture, totally stressed on belief in God and love for him - they don't talk about punishing but talk about redemption. For example - If someone has done a sin and he's not punished and in fact he's saved by Jesus than its human nature that he will do the sin again and say I will start believing in God from now. So keeps on hurting people and going to church every sunday, I feel this is what happens when people aren't shown the fear of their acts - Do you agree?
Monotheism is also eastern culture. The concept of redemption is not western, but I do understand the differences you speak of.
I think many people are very confused about sin, the effects of sin, and how to overcome sin.

As far as life versus lives. Scripture says, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment." (Heb. 9:27)
Friend, there are no past lives.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
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