Speed-of-light experiments give baffling result at Cern

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Speed-of-light experiments give baffling result at Cern

#1

Post by DannyM » Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:02 pm

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Re: Speed-of-light experiments give baffling result at Cern

#2

Post by Echoside » Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:41 pm

Interesting find for sure, but like they said in the article I wouldn't jump the gun and start rewriting physics books until some more investigation has been done.

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Re: Speed-of-light experiments give baffling result at Cern

#3

Post by 1over137 » Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:37 am

Webcast:

New results from OPERA on neutrino properties
by Dario Autiero (Institut de Physique Nucleaire de Lyon)
Friday, September 23, 2011 from 16:00 to 18:00 (Europe/Zurich) at CERN

see: http://indico.cern.ch/conferenceDisplay ... fId=155620
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Re: Speed-of-light experiments give baffling result at Cern

#4

Post by Silvertusk » Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:07 am

I think they need to do a lot more repeated experiments before they can conclude that particles can travel faster than light.

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Re: Speed-of-light experiments give baffling result at Cern

#5

Post by 1over137 » Sun Sep 25, 2011 1:23 am

Just a small example on causality violation:

Consider two points A and B on the x-axis of the coordinate system S and suppose the neutrino beam originates at A and travels to B with the velocity u. In the system S the time lapse is Dt= (x_B - x_A)/u. In another system S', which has the velocity v with respect to S the time lapse between cause and effect is Dt' = gamma * (1 - uv/c^2), where gamma is the known gamma factor (positive value for v < c). It is evident that we could take the u velocity great enough so that the Dt' was negative (and v was still smaller than c). In other words, for an observer in system S' the effect which occurs at B would precede in time its cause which originates at A.
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Re: Speed-of-light experiments give baffling result at Cern

#6

Post by Byblos » Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:47 am

1over137 wrote:Just a small example on causality violation:

Consider two points A and B on the x-axis of the coordinate system S and suppose the neutrino beam originates at A and travels to B with the velocity u. In the system S the time lapse is Dt= (x_B - x_A)/u. In another system S', which has the velocity v with respect to S the time lapse between cause and effect is Dt' = gamma * (1 - uv/c^2), where gamma is the known gamma factor (positive value for v < c). It is evident that we could take the u velocity great enough so that the Dt' was negative (and v was still smaller than c). In other words, for an observer in system S' the effect which occurs at B would precede in time its cause which originates at A.
What is your conclusion then?
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Re: Speed-of-light experiments give baffling result at Cern

#7

Post by 1over137 » Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:51 am

Byblos wrote:What is your conclusion then?
If tachyonic neutrinos exist then the theory of relativity will be put into question and so the assumption of cause preceding effect. I personally hope that scientists will find an error in the experiment. One of my previous university schoolfellows said that if the experiment turns positive he will give up his carrier as a physicist.
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Re: Speed-of-light experiments give baffling result at Cern

#8

Post by narnia4 » Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:22 pm

I listened to an RTB podcast on this, they were saying that if true it won't be as big a deal as some headlines are making out. More like small adjustments to build on scientific foundations rather than tearing those foundations down. It changes things, their own model would need updating, but they didn't seem to think that it was a science killer.

It was also said (and this uneducated non-expert agrees with this) that they doubt that the result will stand. There have been other claims like this in the past and there's been so many experiments dealing with the speed of light that it does seem likely that this will be disproved. Of course it may take some time to figure it all out.

That was their take anyway. I think in general these things get blown up, but I do of course recognize that "Einstein was wrong, science changed forever!" makes a good headline. Its interesting anyway.
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Re: Speed-of-light experiments give baffling result at Cern

#9

Post by 1over137 » Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:18 am

Thanks for mentioning the RTB podcast. I went to that webpage and found the headlines about neutrinos. There they mention Jeremiah 33:25. I do not see how this is connected to the physical law about exceeeding the speed of light.
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Re: Speed-of-light experiments give baffling result at Cern

#10

Post by narnia4 » Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:01 pm

Yeah, I don't quite see the connection to that either... although I don't mind mentioning that I'm in over my head when trying to discuss or even give an opinion on things like this. I'm better at philosophy and theology, but even in those discussions I'm very far from an expert.

The physical world certainly is amazing though (and the universe too).
Last edited by narnia4 on Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Speed-of-light experiments give baffling result at Cern

#11

Post by 1over137 » Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:01 am

narnia4 wrote:The physical world certainly is amazing though.
And you only need couple of principles to describe it.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
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Re: Speed-of-light experiments give baffling result at Cern

#12

Post by narnia4 » Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:24 pm

I was waiting to see what William Lane Craig had to say about this, but from this article he sounds almost ecstatic and says he hopes it holds up. Wasn't really expecting that.

Here's the article-

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/Pag ... me=q_and_a
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Re: Speed-of-light experiments give baffling result at Cern

#13

Post by Silvertusk » Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:54 am

Glad he is happy - but I am afraid I did not understand a word of that. :ewink:

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Re: Speed-of-light experiments give baffling result at Cern

#14

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Mon Oct 03, 2011 3:36 am

Silvertusk wrote:Glad he is happy - but I am afraid I did not understand a word of that. :ewink:
Me either, i got about 1/100th of the way in and gave up :pound: , i wish i was smarter.
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Re: Speed-of-light experiments give baffling result at Cern

#15

Post by DannyM » Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:10 am

Silvertusk wrote:Glad he is happy - but I am afraid I did not understand a word of that. :ewink:
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