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Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
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Byblos
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Re: YouTube...

#61

Post by Byblos » Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:33 am

BryanH wrote:
Er, no it's not. One side has a rational argument for creation (of anything) that does not violate the law of non-contradiction, and the other one ... well, doesn't.
No offense Byblos, but at present times I don't think that anyone can offer a rational argument for creation. We only have assumptions.
I hope you don't take offense either when I say you are completely wrong. Classical philosophy has had this answer for centuries but it largely goes unmentioned because there is no modern answer for it.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: YouTube...

#62

Post by KBCid » Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:18 pm

Is there only 2 sides? What if I were to say I don't "believe" God exists... I know it. Wouldn't this be a third option?
It is as if some Christians sit there and wait for the smallest thing that they can dispute and then jump onto it...
The Bible says that we were each given an interpretation – this gift of interpretation is not there so we can run each other into the ground. It is there for our MUTUAL edification.
//www.allaboutgod.net/profiles/blogs/chri ... each-other

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Pierson5
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Re: YouTube...

#63

Post by Pierson5 » Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:53 pm

Byblos wrote:
BryanH wrote:
Er, no it's not. One side has a rational argument for creation (of anything) that does not violate the law of non-contradiction, and the other one ... well, doesn't.
No offense Byblos, but at present times I don't think that anyone can offer a rational argument for creation. We only have assumptions.
I hope you don't take offense either when I say you are completely wrong. Classical philosophy has had this answer for centuries but it largely goes unmentioned because there is no modern answer for it.
I'd have to agree with BryanH. No one has an answer yet. Just out of curiosity, could you point me to this philosophical argument?
Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.
-Marcus Aurelius

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Byblos
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Re: YouTube...

#64

Post by Byblos » Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:06 am

Pierson5 wrote:
Byblos wrote:
BryanH wrote:
Er, no it's not. One side has a rational argument for creation (of anything) that does not violate the law of non-contradiction, and the other one ... well, doesn't.
No offense Byblos, but at present times I don't think that anyone can offer a rational argument for creation. We only have assumptions.
I hope you don't take offense either when I say you are completely wrong. Classical philosophy has had this answer for centuries but it largely goes unmentioned because there is no modern answer for it.
I'd have to agree with BryanH. No one has an answer yet. Just out of curiosity, could you point me to this philosophical argument?
You'd have to do a ton of reading but start with Aquinas' Summa Theologica. Next I would suggest Divine Simplicity.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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BryanH
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Re: YouTube...

#65

Post by BryanH » Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:54 am

You'd have to do a ton of reading but start with Aquinas' Summa Theologica. Next I would suggest Divine Simplicity.
I've read a little about that one of the problems of this theory is that the theory assumes that the "first mover" is God. Again, it is an assumption that can't be verified.

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Re: YouTube...

#66

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:06 am

it is an assumption that can't be verified.
God is not an assumption, he has revealed himself through the living word.

Dan
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: YouTube...

#67

Post by BryanH » Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:17 am

God is not an assumption, he has revealed himself through the living word.
Dan, I really don't want to start this discussion all over again: first of all you can't verify that Jesus is actually the son of God.

So God is an assumption at this moment in time.

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Re: YouTube...

#68

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:19 am

BryanH wrote:
God is not an assumption, he has revealed himself through the living word.
Dan, I really don't want to start this discussion all over again: first of all you can't verify that Jesus is actually the son of God.

So God is an assumption at this moment in time.

That is your opinion, which I do not share.

Edit. God is only an assumption to you, what you are saying is only an assertion. God to me is not an assumption, this quote sums it up quite well.

“I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.” - C.S.Lewis

God is so real to me that I do not have a choice but to believe, everyday I see the work of his hand and experience his grace and love.

Dan
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: YouTube...

#69

Post by BryanH » Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:48 am

That is your opinion, which I do not share.

Edit. God is only an assumption to you, what you are saying is only an assertion. God to me is not an assumption, this quote sums it up quite well.

“I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.” - C.S.Lewis

God is so real to me that I do not have a choice but to believe, everyday I see the work of his hand and experience his grace and love.
Of course Dan.
Sorry. I didn't mean to offend your beliefs in any way.

I was strictly speaking from a factual point of view.

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Re: YouTube...

#70

Post by Byblos » Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:09 am

BryanH wrote:
That is your opinion, which I do not share.

Edit. God is only an assumption to you, what you are saying is only an assertion. God to me is not an assumption, this quote sums it up quite well.

“I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.” - C.S.Lewis

God is so real to me that I do not have a choice but to believe, everyday I see the work of his hand and experience his grace and love.
Of course Dan.
Sorry. I didn't mean to offend your beliefs in any way.

I was strictly speaking from a factual point of view.
No you weren't, you were merely expressing an unsubstantiated opinion. You can't even coherently explain why there is existence.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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BryanH
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Re: YouTube...

#71

Post by BryanH » Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:25 am

No you weren't, you were merely expressing an unsubstantiated opinion. You can't even coherently explain why there is existence.

Byblos no offense again, but nobody can explain why... a lot of people try to explain MAYBE why, but that's all...

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Re: YouTube...

#72

Post by Pierson5 » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:35 am

Byblos wrote:
Pierson5 wrote:
Byblos wrote: I hope you don't take offense either when I say you are completely wrong. Classical philosophy has had this answer for centuries but it largely goes unmentioned because there is no modern answer for it.
I'd have to agree with BryanH. No one has an answer yet. Just out of curiosity, could you point me to this philosophical argument?
You'd have to do a ton of reading but start with Aquinas' Summa Theologica. Next I would suggest Divine Simplicity.
BryanH wrote: I've read a little about that one of the problems of this theory is that the theory assumes that the "first mover" is God. Again, it is an assumption that can't be verified.
Ah, the "unmoved mover." I have read about this before, but will take a look at the links, thanks Byblos.

BryanH wrote:
No you weren't, you were merely expressing an unsubstantiated opinion. You can't even coherently explain why there is existence.

Byblos no offense again, but nobody can explain why... a lot of people try to explain MAYBE why, but that's all...
Precisely. Just because the human race or science, etc.. doesn't have an answer (yet, if ever), doesn't make the other view correct by default.
Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.
-Marcus Aurelius

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Re: YouTube...

#73

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:44 pm

BryanH wrote:
No you weren't, you were merely expressing an unsubstantiated opinion. You can't even coherently explain why there is existence.

Byblos no offense again, but nobody can explain why... a lot of people try to explain MAYBE why, but that's all...

Wrong, the Bible explains the why and has a little detail on the how, it's just that you don't accept that.

We don't say maybe this or maybe that, we say we know this we know that according to God's word.

No maybe's here.


Dan
Last edited by Danieltwotwenty on Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

Danieltwotwenty
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Re: YouTube...

#74

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:46 pm

Precisely. Just because the human race or science, etc.. doesn't have an answer (yet, if ever), doesn't make the other view correct by default.
What answer are we talking about, if you are talking about God, how exactly would science test for something outside of the scope of it ability?

With your limited time on this planet you may never have the answer before it is too late, maybe you should stop worrying about the whole human race finding an answer and concentrate on your own finite exitence before the candles burns out.


Dan
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: YouTube...

#75

Post by BryanH » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:12 am

Wrong, the Bible explains the why and has a little detail on the how, it's just that you don't accept that.

We don't say maybe this or maybe that, we say we know this we know that according to God's word.

No maybe's here.
Again, Dan, this was more like a factual statement. I know that the Bible says a lot of things about Creation, but actually saying that there are no maybes in the bible comes to using a certain degree of faith and personal beliefs.

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