Laws of an Atheist Utopia

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
User avatar
neo-x
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3560
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:13 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 227 times
Been liked: 106 times
Contact:

Re: Laws of an Atheist Utopia

#61

Post by neo-x » Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:50 am

Once, I convinced an atheist to say "Oh My Science" instead of "Oh My God."
lol... :lol:
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

User avatar
Pierson5
Established Member
Posts: 149
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:42 pm
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Location: CA
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Laws of an Atheist Utopia

#62

Post by Pierson5 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:27 pm

neo-x wrote:
Once, I convinced an atheist to say "Oh My Science" instead of "Oh My God."
lol... :lol:
South Park used it as a satire in one of their episodes. I jokingly use it occasionally. Either that or "Oh your God." Satire aside, you do realize there are plenty of "atheist utopias" (and steadily rising) all around the world right? Here is a lovely paper on the subject:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=ca ... 3PHxmtyBOg

Religiously free societies with a proportionally large number atheists are generally more peaceful. (Note: this does not mean atheists are implicitly peaceful). It has been my experience that ignorant jerks who believe in God will be ignorant jerks when they do not (and vice versa).

“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. “ – Steven Weinberg

Image
Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.
-Marcus Aurelius

Danieltwotwenty
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2879
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:01 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Aussie Land
Has liked: 37 times
Been liked: 11 times

Re: Laws of an Atheist Utopia

#63

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:56 pm

All those stats are wrong, I took a look at census reports and the UK is about 71% and Australia 77.7% in favour of religion.

Didn't bother to look at the rest of the places because the report is bogus.

*edit*
I think also the stats might be deceiving becuase if I was asked if religion is important I would say no, God and Jesus are important.

Dan
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

User avatar
Pierson5
Established Member
Posts: 149
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:42 pm
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Location: CA
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Laws of an Atheist Utopia

#64

Post by Pierson5 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:50 pm

Danieltwotwenty wrote:All those stats are wrong, I took a look at census reports and the UK is about 71% and Australia 77.7% in favour of religion.

Didn't bother to look at the rest of the places because the report is bogus.

*edit*
I think also the stats might be deceiving becuase if I was asked if religion is important I would say no, God and Jesus are important.

Dan
I agree with you about the wording of the question. But, the countries at the top of the list ARE the most atheistic countries in the world. If the stats are off by a few %, it doesn't change the fact they are still at the top. If there was any sort of correlation between atheism and immorality, these countries should also have the highest crime rates, etc.., not the opposite.
Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.
-Marcus Aurelius

Danieltwotwenty
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2879
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:01 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Aussie Land
Has liked: 37 times
Been liked: 11 times

Re: Laws of an Atheist Utopia

#65

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:00 pm

Pierson5 wrote:
Danieltwotwenty wrote:All those stats are wrong, I took a look at census reports and the UK is about 71% and Australia 77.7% in favour of religion.

Didn't bother to look at the rest of the places because the report is bogus.

*edit*
I think also the stats might be deceiving becuase if I was asked if religion is important I would say no, God and Jesus are important.

Dan
I agree with you about the wording of the question. But, the countries at the top of the list ARE the most atheistic countries in the world. If the stats are off by a few %, it doesn't change the fact they are still at the top. If there was any sort of correlation between atheism and immorality, these countries should also have the highest crime rates, etc.., not the opposite.

At the top of the list are Australia and the UK, the percentages are way off by about 40%, not some small discrepancy.

I looked at some other countries right at the top, Netherlands 51.6% religious that's a discrepancy of about 20%.

New Zealand 74.2% religious, that's a discrepancy of 40%.

That report is a complete load of rubbish according to census reports.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

Danieltwotwenty
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2879
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:01 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Aussie Land
Has liked: 37 times
Been liked: 11 times

Re: Laws of an Atheist Utopia

#66

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:16 pm

haha I just noticed that the list is in descending order, my bad.


But it still is a bogus report.

Who ever said atheist couldn't be moral, God's moral law is written into the hearts of every man, including atheists.


Dan
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

Danieltwotwenty
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2879
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:01 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Aussie Land
Has liked: 37 times
Been liked: 11 times

Re: Laws of an Atheist Utopia

#67

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:20 pm

23% of Swedish citizens responded that "they believe there is a god".
53% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force".
23% answered that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, god, or life force".

Taken from Wikipedia.

76% believe in something, 23% no beliefs.

Huge discrepancy there, just more atheistic crapola.

y:-?
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

User avatar
Pierson5
Established Member
Posts: 149
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:42 pm
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Location: CA
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Laws of an Atheist Utopia

#68

Post by Pierson5 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:28 pm

Danieltwotwenty wrote:23% of Swedish citizens responded that "they believe there is a god".
53% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force".
23% answered that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, god, or life force".

Taken from Wikipedia.

76% believe in something, 23% no beliefs.

Huge discrepancy there, just more atheistic crapola.

y:-?
By definition, if you believe in a life force, but no deity, would you not be an atheist?

Edit: Also, take a look at the first post. It's not that atheist cannot be moral, but I think you can see the type of stereotype atheists are labeled as.
Last edited by Pierson5 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.
-Marcus Aurelius

Danieltwotwenty
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2879
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:01 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Aussie Land
Has liked: 37 times
Been liked: 11 times

Re: Laws of an Atheist Utopia

#69

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:29 pm

Pierson5 wrote:
Danieltwotwenty wrote:23% of Swedish citizens responded that "they believe there is a god".
53% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force".
23% answered that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, god, or life force".

Taken from Wikipedia.

76% believe in something, 23% no beliefs.

Huge discrepancy there, just more atheistic crapola.

y:-?
By definition, if you believe in a life force, but no deity, would you not be an atheist?
I would say more agnostic, they may not know what that force is.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

User avatar
Pierson5
Established Member
Posts: 149
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:42 pm
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Location: CA
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Laws of an Atheist Utopia

#70

Post by Pierson5 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:32 pm

Danieltwotwenty wrote:
Pierson5 wrote:
Danieltwotwenty wrote:23% of Swedish citizens responded that "they believe there is a god".
53% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force".
23% answered that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, god, or life force".

Taken from Wikipedia.

76% believe in something, 23% no beliefs.

Huge discrepancy there, just more atheistic crapola.

y:-?
By definition, if you believe in a life force, but no deity, would you not be an atheist?
I would say more agnostic, they may not know what that force is.
Ah, but now we are getting more into label semantics. This debate is very prevalent in the atheistic/agnostic community, I don't think we can resolve it here lol. At that point, we will have to agree to disagree. The point I was trying to drive home was, there are areas in the world that are more atheistic than others, and there is no correlation between disbelief in god and increased crime rates/poverty/etc...

I think from your quote: God's moral law is written into the hearts of every man, including atheists. Would you not agree?
Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.
-Marcus Aurelius

Danieltwotwenty
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2879
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:01 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Aussie Land
Has liked: 37 times
Been liked: 11 times

Re: Laws of an Atheist Utopia

#71

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:38 pm

Pierson5 wrote:
Danieltwotwenty wrote:
Pierson5 wrote:
Danieltwotwenty wrote:23% of Swedish citizens responded that "they believe there is a god".
53% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force".
23% answered that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, god, or life force".

Taken from Wikipedia.

76% believe in something, 23% no beliefs.

Huge discrepancy there, just more atheistic crapola.

y:-?
By definition, if you believe in a life force, but no deity, would you not be an atheist?
I would say more agnostic, they may not know what that force is.
Ah, but now we are getting more into label semantics. This debate is very prevalent in the atheistic/agnostic community, I don't think we can resolve it here lol. At that point, we will have to agree to disagree. The point I was trying to drive home was, there are areas in the world that are more atheistic than others, and there is no correlation between disbelief in god and increased crime rates/poverty/etc...

I think from your quote: God's moral law is written into the hearts of every man, including atheists. Would you not agree?
Of course I agree, I just disagree with those statistics, they are way to vague for my liking and are not a real accurate representation of the facts.

Dan
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

User avatar
neo-x
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3560
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:13 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 227 times
Been liked: 106 times
Contact:

Re: Laws of an Atheist Utopia

#72

Post by neo-x » Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:08 am

Pierson
you do realize there are plenty of "atheist utopias" (and steadily rising) all around the world right? Here is a lovely paper on the subject:
I am not against anyone's utopia, by all means let them flourish but you also do realize that in the OP I am not talking about atheists who do not believe in God, I am not talking about secular people or even secular governments who are atheist at heart but are secular on the front, which means that they neither believe in God but they do not interfere in people's right to worship any religion. All the countries you have listed are like these but I am not talking about these countries. I am talking about when a government goes atheist and I mean real hardcore atheist is when troubles start and in that line of thought, what I wrote is bit distorted way of describing what atheist regimes did or would do. When it bans all kinds of religion that is what I wanted to say and I still maintain it.

The Templeon Address, by Alexander Solzhenitsyn
"Over a half century ago, while I was still a child, I recall hearing a number of old people offer the following explanation for the great disasters that had befallen Russia: “Men have forgotten God; that’s why all this has happened.” Since then I have spent well-nigh 50 years working on the history of our revolution; in the process I have read hundreds of books, collected hundreds of personal testimonies, and have already contributed eight volumes of my own toward the effort of clearing away the rubble left by that upheaval. But if I were asked today to formulate as concisely as possible the main cause of the ruinous revolution that swallowed up some 60 million of our people, I could not put it more accurately than to repeat: “Men have forgotten God; that’s why all this has happened...”"
“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. “ – Steven Weinberg
And what did it take soviet Russia to demolish 42,000 churches and kill almost 60million people? religion or atheism?
What did it take America to drop nukes on japan? religion?
what did it take the world to fight the two world wars? religion?

and yes there have been atrocities done in the name of religion and I could list those too or you can too but that will only show how flawed we all are, religion or no religion but to your specific point here, good people can do evil things without religion, just look at the Nazi's...lol.
Religiously free societies with a proportionally large number atheists are generally more peaceful. (Note: this does not mean atheists are implicitly peaceful).
Do you know that any number of humans cant be "generally peaceful" for a very long period of time. Take a look at history and tell me if you can find one example. I'd challenge you to let that ""generally peaceful" atheist community of yours to thrive for 2000 years and then we'll see if they are as more peaceful than religious communities. Religion is flawed because man is flawed and therefore atheism is flawed in the same sense, it is no better.
If there was any sort of correlation between atheism and immorality, these countries should also have the highest crime rates, etc.., not the opposite.
The sleep of reason breeds monsters. Francisco Goya

Do you know that if 3000 years ago, you would see the kingdom of Israel under the rule of king Solomon, you would have to say the same thing that "If there was any sort of correlation between theism and immorality, this country should also have the highest crime rates, etc.., not the opposite"

Immorality doesn't come out of any atheist mindset, it comes from the convenient ethics the atheist regime adapts. It is therefore not the presence of evil that is the problem but whats to stop it and condemn it, is what really is the question.

Christians murder people, and whether they admit it or not, they are guilty by objective moral standards put forth by God, even if the order to murder was given by the pope himself. But when and atheist murders people under an atheist regime which tells him that the legal authority is the final authority and what he is doing will somehow add to the Utopian dream they all share, then murdering someone becomes a good thing to do. The Nazi's followed the same principle. the athiest ofcourse could be a good hearted person and may feel very very bad for murdering someone because his goverment commands him to do such but then again whats to stop it other than a guilt feeling of the man carrying out the order? nothing. And do not get me wrong justified killing is something other than what we are talking about here, capital punishment for example and etc.

But back to the point about feelings, that it is a fools standard for feeling alone can not determine if something is right or wrong. A lot of atheist officers in soviet history felt good about what they did and they did it without remorse because there was no objective moral code they were to answer to. If good is what you define it to be then you are defining good as you see fit. A christian is wrong even if he murders on the order of his pope because there is an objective standard higher than the pope but when an atheist regime murders people to obliterate religion, what objective moral code could any of them turn to and see the error of their ways since they do not believe in an objective moral code to begin with.

I hope I get my point across, objective morality is tied with God, if there is a God, there is objective morality, if there is no God, there is no objective morality and good is what you consider it to be as your tribe, nation, country, sect sees fit. Remember I am not saying that such societies can not make good laws but that whatever they do and plan it is inherently based on what they think is right or good. It is not answerable to any higher standard for they are the standard themselves and while they may not do anything horrific, they already have done the biggest mistake they could, the redefined good according to their own mindset, they opened the gate. Because when there is no ultimate/timeless standards then it won't take long for the standards already established to be changed because human beings are not consistent generation wise. the soviet revolution did not end per se on the same grounds it started. It eventually became worse and worst that it broke down the people and whole generations before going down in ashes.
The point I was trying to drive home was, there are areas in the world that are more atheistic than others, and there is no correlation between disbelief in god and increased crime rates/poverty/etc...
And point noted but just by the way, I wasn't saying that there is increased crime rate among atheists, but crimes when legalized by regimes, become good. Yet in an Om perspective they are still wrong, in a SM perspective, they are not unless they are questioned up on OM basis.
Last edited by neo-x on Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

User avatar
Reactionary
Senior Member
Posts: 534
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 3:56 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Republic of Croatia
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Laws of an Atheist Utopia

#73

Post by Reactionary » Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:04 am

As I said once somewhere else, out of those 10 countries Pierson brought up, 9 have a long-lasting Christian heritage. What that post is saying is like having a government in power for a very long time, one that governs successfully and creates prosperity. Then another government is elected and they claim, "Look, we built all this. We're so much better than our opposition." That's exactly how much sense that post makes. A false correlation of epic proportions.

By the way, that post is full of pictures of nature. What does that have to do with wealth and the standard of living? y/:)
"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces." Matthew 7:6

"For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse." Romans 1:20

--Reactionary

Beanybag
Valued Member
Posts: 330
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:22 am
Christian: No
Sex: It's Complicated
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Laws of an Atheist Utopia

#74

Post by Beanybag » Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:13 am

neo-x wrote:you do realize there are plenty of "atheist utopias" (and steadily rising) all around the world right? Here is a lovely paper on the subject:
I am not against anyone's utopia, by all means let them flourish but you also do realize that in the OP I am not talking about atheists who do not believe in God, I am not talking about secular people or even secular governments who are atheist at heart but are secular on the front, which means that they neither believe in God but they do not interfere in people's right to worship any religion. All the countries you have listed are like these but I am not talking about these countries. I am talking about when a government goes atheist and I mean real hardcore atheist is when troubles start and in that line of thought, what I wrote is bit distorted way of describing what atheist regimes did or would do. When it bans all kinds of religion that is what I wanted to say and I still maintain it.[/quote]

Freedom of religion is freedom of thought. Any regime that bans religion is destined to fail. I'm not sure of an atheists outside of communist, fascists, and white supremacists that would want this. Most are secularists. Also, you should take care before labeling the Nazis/Hitler as atheists, that's not really a debate you want to bring up.

User avatar
neo-x
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3560
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:13 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 227 times
Been liked: 106 times
Contact:

Re: Laws of an Atheist Utopia

#75

Post by neo-x » Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:54 am

Also, you should take care before labeling the Nazis/Hitler as atheists, that's not really a debate you want to bring up.
I never said that Beany, only that good people can turn evil without religion.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

Post Reply