I'm an atheist

[Legatus]

[quote="Gman]I have no clue why you are writing this only that you are trying to expound on your philosophical viewpoints.. Which we could say is your reality. However, that reality is a TRUE reality based on the word of God. Either way its what I'm attributing to an object that scientifically carries no viewpoint at all. It simply exists..[/quote]
"Which we could say is your reality" and "have no clue" are the operative words here. You believe that one MUST view the world through some lens to see it the right way. But, dare I say it, what if you take that lens off, what if you dare to view the world though no lens at all, what would you see? I have dared to do that, not because I wanted, or did not want, there to be a God, but because I wanted to know the TRUTH. In fact, I have often wanted there to be NO God, but, having seen the facts, which don't care what I want, I come to the conclusion that there must be a God, not because I believe it, or because I want it, but because, like a rock, God just is. And how do I know God is, because of the rock, and all those other rocks that make up the universe, all those hard, inconvenient facts.


And how do you do that, how do you view the world through no lens at all? Clue, look up, at the top of your browser, see that url? God and Science dot org. To say again, God and SCIENCE. Well, what is science, why did it come about? It, properly "the scientific method", came about specifically because, in the old days people screened ALL they saw through some "viewpoint" or "their reality". But some people were not satisfied with that, they wanted to know if "their reality" matched the actual reality, because "their reality" kept clashing with actual reality, and being shown wrong. So they developed a method to TEST it, to carefully screen out any preconcieved ideas, and get at the actual reality. For instance, it was 'their reality" that sayed that heavy objects fall faster than light objects, everyone said so. So some upstart named Galileo decided to actually TEST it, and dared to climb up on the leaning tower, and drop a big heavy rock and a small light rock, and see if the heavy one landed first. Lo and behold, they landed at the same time, every time. Exit "your reality" and enter the actual reality.


The very idea of "your reality" is a lie of Satan. It was first seen in the garden of Eden, where Satan said that if they ate the fruit "your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil", and they ate, because it was "desirable for gaining wisdom". In short, they decided that they, from then on, would decide what was good and evil for themselves, what was or was not wisdom, to basically say to God "I reject your reality and substitute my own". But all around them, reality continued on completly uneffected by their view of it, and when they broke the laws of the creator of that reality, and beleived fictional reality, it clashed with the actual reality, and they got hurt. And since then, mankind continues to believe that there is such a thing as "my reality", despite repeated proof that that reality is not true, or does not work. But there isn't, reality doesn't care if you beleive it or not, that reality was here before you were ever born (just ask your mother), and will continue to be here after you are gone.


Thus we see that the very idea "your reality" is sin, invented by Satan long ago. So how do we screen out this sin? I have tried to screen it out by finding out what my own, and others, philosophical underpinnings are, and take them into account, screen them out, or even eliminate them altogether. Of course, it is impossible to completly eliminate all bias, because "all have sinned", but I at least recognized the problem, and have made enough strides in that direction that I can be sure of a fair amount of "my reality" matching up with actual reality. And this is not because I start from a belief in God, but because I started with a belief that I wanted to know what the actual reality was, and I looked at it, by looking at the natural world, and I found God staring back at me (exactly as it says in Rom 1:20 would happen).


And I expect that the idea of many christians today that they MUST view things through a "christian world view" in regards to the facts, the science, of the natural world, is because Satan has sold them more lies, and some of what they beleive about the natural world is false, and they know it. They just don't admit it to themselves, so they go through life carefully not looking at an facts that might shake their world view. Thus, we can see such things as beleiving that the world, and universe, is only 6000, or 10,000, years old, despite the HUGE amount of very thoroughly tested evidnece of all kinds that it is FAR older than that, and coming from that idea, the beleif that they MUST view the world through some arbitrary, man invented "christian world view", to protect themselves from any inconvenient FACTS which might shake their nice, comfortable beleif. They even go further, walling themselves in together and retreating complety from the world (thus breaking Gods command that they be IN the world but not of it), and never even getting in contact with the world after that. Thus, Satan has them right where he wants them, completly neutralized from any influnece on the world, and so far out of touch with the actual reality of the physical world that they are now a laughing stock in it. In short, "the church" (or at least large parts of it) are now doing exactly what God said NOT to do, becoming "men who suppress the truth by their wickedness", who try to supress any truth that does not match their often arbitrary "christian world view". Now you might think "I don't beleive in all that young earth stuff", but you DO beleive you NEED a "christian world view" to view any scientific facts, so you have bought into some of it after all.


And I see another possible reason you see a NEED to view all science through some "world view", FEAR. Yes, you are afraid you will see something in the natural world that challenges your belief, thus, you carefully do not look at any evidence that might challenge you. In other words, you don't really beleive God when he says this Rom 1:20 . If you did, you would know that no scientifically verified fact would ever contradict what God said (I know, I have checked). Thus, you might want to realise something, this thing called faith, which means you actually trust God, which means you don't have to be afraid anymore, and you can take off the lens of your "world view" and look at the naked universe unafraid.


I personally don't expect that you will understand this, in fact, I expect you will skim over it, feal vaguely uneasy, and simply dismiss it and try not to think about it again. Satan, after all, has dreamed up this idea of "the war between science and religion" (still on, see the 163,000 results on just that version of the phrase alone http://www.google.com/search?q=%22war+b ... afe=images ), thus neatly cutting the church out from the christian invented and developed idea of "the scientific method", and has kept it going for about 150 years now, with the result that the very idea of region is now seen by many as backward and unscientific (as seen by some posters in these forums, see here http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... =4&t=34424 ), and the very idea of the scientific method is seen by many "true belivers" as evil (many of whom may not actually believe in christianity, Christ based, but churchianity, belive what the others around you beleive so you fit in). But you need to ask yourself, do you really beleive this Rom 1:20 ? Do you really need some "world view" to screen reality through if it really is "clearly seen" "from what has been made"? Or would simple honesty do just fine? And if you don't think you have the time or training to sift through all that evidence of the natural world, try clicking on the banner at the top of this page, there's some there.

[jlay]

You believe that one MUST view the world through some lens to see it the right way. But, dare I say it, what if you take that lens off, what if you dare to view the world though no lens at all, what would you see?

I'll be honest. I haven't thourogly read all of your last post. But this is simply not a correct statement.
You CAN NOT take off your lens. Everyone views the world through a lens. It is called a worldview, and everyone has one. Period. To even claim that you have taken off the lens, is in fact adopting a lens to view the world through. It's a self-defeating claim. If you have thoughts, memories, and senses, then you are presupposing that those are reliable things. Do you adhere to reason? You then presuppose that reason exists and works. That is a lens. It is a worldview. Why not just cast off the lense that your senses are reliable? That evidence gathering methods are reliable? That reason and logic are reliable? Or, is it in fact perfectly reasonable to not discard that lens through which we view the world?

That isn't to say someone looking through one lens, can't gain a different perspective, which I think is actually what you are speaking of here. Just greatly distorting it, IMO. At least that is how I SEE it.

In fact skimming through your post, I detect a good bit of arrogance. You claim to not look through a lens, when in fact you are, but claim that the one (you are not looking through) is in fact is the superior one. Making yourself the "lens" police.

Now, I agree, there is merit to some of the issues you address. However, the one assuming a YECer is some person with their fingers in their ears going, "lalalalala, I can't hear you, lalalalal," is just plain arrogant and wrong. Are there those like that? Sure. But you again make a huge fallacy when you categorically lump people together.

I'm also curious just how much 'evidence' you've actually studied. And by that I mean raw evidence. Not someone's conclusions on the evidence where their worldview has already been applied.

[DannyM]

I'll be honest. I haven't thourogly read all of your last post. But this is simply not a correct statement.
You CAN NOT take off your lens. Everyone views the world through a lens. It is called a worldview, and everyone has one. Period. To even claim that you have taken off the lens, is in fact adopting a lens to view the world through. It's a self-defeating claim. If you have thoughts, memories, and senses, then you are presupposing that those are reliable things. Do you adhere to reason? You then presuppose that reason exists and works. That is a lens. It is a worldview. Why not just cast off the lense that your senses are reliable? That evidence gathering methods are reliable? That reason and logic are reliable? Or, is it in fact perfectly reasonable to not discard that lens through which we view the world?

Quite right J.

Legatus-
You do have some good points, just try to be more measured and stop appearing as though you are grinding some axe. You're talking to people who probably agree with the majority of what you say; it just seems like you are looking for a bit of a tear up.

Peace.

[Gman]

"Which we could say is your reality" and "have no clue" are the operative words here. You believe that one MUST view the world through some lens to see it the right way. But, dare I say it, what if you take that lens off, what if you dare to view the world though no lens at all, what would you see? I have dared to do that, not because I wanted, or did not want, there to be a God, but because I wanted to know the TRUTH. In fact, I have often wanted there to be NO God, but, having seen the facts, which don't care what I want, I come to the conclusion that there must be a God, not because I believe it, or because I want it, but because, like a rock, God just is. And how do I know God is, because of the rock, and all those other rocks that make up the universe, all those hard, inconvenient facts.

Again I don't think you have understood what I'm trying to convey.. A physical object is just what it us... A physical object. Like a rock, or a cat, or water, a tree, etc... It just exists.. HOWEVER, when I start questioning how the object formed or where it came from or what formed it, we cannot escape our philosophical viewpoints. THAT is when science and philosophy will collide, not the object itself.. It's what perspective I'm attributing it. We as human beings will at some point question origins, and when we do, we have numerous options to choose from. But yes.. There is only one TRUE reality. And that is God's reality that will forever exist..

I really don't know how to make this any clearer...

[dorkmaster]

It would appear the OP is not interested at all in any of this.