A athiest posted this from youtube. Flat universe argument

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
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Swimmy
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A athiest posted this from youtube. Flat universe argument

#1

Post by Swimmy » Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:11 pm

"Physicist Lawrence Krauss tell us that if Universe is flat, and we have calculated that it is with a 2% error margin, it may have indeed started from nothing: "


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo





Thoughts?

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Re: A athiest posted this from youtube. Flat universe argument

#2

Post by ageofknowledge » Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:18 pm

Until the mid-1990s, astrophysicists found it remarkable that the universe was so close to a flat geometry because such flatness is unstable with respect to time (remember that the cosmic expansion rate is so fine tuned to add a single dime to the mass of the observable universe would be enough of a change to make physical life impossible, for example). Even though they could detect only about 4 percent of the mass required to make the universe flat, this required the early universe to be exquisitely close to "flat" to within one part in 1060. The picture changed as measurements of the radiation left over from the cosmic creation event, also known as the cosmic microwave background radiation, confirmed (with an error bar of about 3 percent1) that the universe is geometrically flat and dark matter was factored. The universe, though four-dimensional, is flat in that the four-dimensional system lacks curvature. In a nutshell, this answers questions about what the universe contains and how it develops over time. These answers, in turn, magnify the accuracy of biblical cosmology and the necessity of the biblical Creation.

This discovery of a flat or nearly flat universe yielded three important affirmations of the biblical creation account. First it confirmed a prediction astronomers made about the cosmic background radiation, a prediction arising from the current best model for the origin of the universe, a model perfectly aligned with biblical cosmology. Second, in combination with the measurements of the mass density of the universe, it established a value for the cosmological constant. This value, in turn, established more powerfully than ever the high degree of design and fine-tuning the universe required in its moment of origin. Third, it revealed that we humans have the "good fortune" to exist at' the moment in cosmic history when the universe is most completely and clearly detectable.

What Lawrence is saying is that since a flat universe has zero energy it can come from quantum fluctuations (e.g. nothing). For a fluctuation to work, it must survive for indefinite time which requires zero total energy and therefore a flat universe. BUT...
Last edited by ageofknowledge on Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:03 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: A athiest posted this from youtube. Flat universe argument

#3

Post by Gman » Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:22 pm

Swimmy wrote:"Physicist Lawrence Krauss tell us that if Universe is flat, and we have calculated that it is with a 2% error margin, it may have indeed started from nothing: "


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo





Thoughts?
:sleep:
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: A athiest posted this from youtube. Flat universe argument

#4

Post by Swimmy » Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:39 am

Could you direct direct me to the cosmological agreements that you explain are in the bible. For future reference?

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Re: A athiest posted this from youtube. Flat universe argument

#5

Post by Swimmy » Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:42 am

Like this quote

William Lane Craig, the author of The Big Bang.

A quantum mechanical vacuum spawning material particles is far from the ordinary idea of a "vacuum" (meaning nothing). Rather, a quantum vacuum is a sea of continually forming and dissolving particles, which borrow energy from the vacuum for their brief existence. This is not "nothing," and hence, material particles do not come into being out of nothing.5

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Re: A athiest posted this from youtube. Flat universe argument

#6

Post by ageofknowledge » Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:59 am

Swimmy wrote:Like this quote

William Lane Craig, the author of The Big Bang.

A quantum mechanical vacuum spawning material particles is far from the ordinary idea of a "vacuum" (meaning nothing). Rather, a quantum vacuum is a sea of continually forming and dissolving particles, which borrow energy from the vacuum for their brief existence. This is not "nothing," and hence, material particles do not come into being out of nothing.5
I'm working on a reply Swimmy but have to finish researching it. There are no worries on this issue. Check back in a couple of days. Peace.

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Re: A athiest posted this from youtube. Flat universe argument

#7

Post by ManOfScience » Fri Oct 30, 2009 11:34 am

Truly fantastic talk! I would urge everybody to watch it. Highly recommended. Thanks for sharing! :)

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Re: A athiest posted this from youtube. Flat universe argument

#8

Post by jujubeee714 » Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:34 pm

G-Man....please please excuse me for interrupting your discussion. I started at what I think is your website?...at www.tellapallet.com - at your blog. I admit I was searching (desperately unfortunately) online for as much info as possible about a 1981 Janet Fish poster - "Spring Party" just because I saw it at a local gallery and fell in love with it. (and W A N T it). On the way I found myself reading reading reading about science and creation. I confess I'm a logical believer so anything I can get my hands on for justification excites me and any conversation bigger than me and my pettiness everyday life makes me feel good, so I'm hip.

I really want to know about your poster. (in the scheme of things that is a RIDICULOUS question....please say your smiling?....) You bought it from the catalogue from the Boston Museum of Fine Arts in 1996 - per your blog, which BTW has everything about u under the sun EXCEPT how to reach u...(and I only say it's u....based on your discussion topics and software connections...???? am I right? - otherwise this whole email is for moot...) But....alas...I've come a LONG WAY and filled out alot of fields....(this site - signing up) and read alot of interesting blogs....sidetracked me for HOURS, thank u)...to find out about that Janet Fish poster. What size is it and how much was it? And is it matted? And is it signed and numbered in the bottom right corner?

Well, G-man....now I've done it! I did read that you welcomed anyone interested in talking about subjects...I hope u at least respect my tenacity?.....

Sincerely, Jujubeee (jujubeee714atmsn) just in case I get lost in the mix....

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Re: A athiest posted this from youtube. Flat universe argument

#9

Post by Gman » Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:43 pm

jujubeee714 wrote:G-Man....please please excuse me for interrupting your discussion. I started at what I think is your website?...at http://www.tellapallet.com - at your blog. I admit I was searching (desperately unfortunately) online for as much info as possible about a 1981 Janet Fish poster - "Spring Party" just because I saw it at a local gallery and fell in love with it. (and W A N T it). On the way I found myself reading reading reading about science and creation. I confess I'm a logical believer so anything I can get my hands on for justification excites me and any conversation bigger than me and my pettiness everyday life makes me feel good, so I'm hip.
Hi Jujubee,

Unfortunately I don't own that website where the poster is located.. However you can download it yourself and have it printed out on a poster printer (plotter). The dimensions are 24 x 48. So if you can find a poster printer, usually at Kinkos, you can print it out yourself.

Here is the poster download in Adobe.

http://tellapallet.com/TreeOfLife.pdf

Sorry..
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: A athiest posted this from youtube. Flat universe argument

#10

Post by Swimmy » Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:41 am

You're welcome MOS.


The irony in the find is kinda weird. It fills a big peace of the puzzle for both sides.



It reaffirms the biblical belief that there was nothing in the beginning.

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Re: A athiest posted this from youtube. Flat universe argument

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Post by mconner » Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:50 pm

An (SIC) marvelous link. Thanks!

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Re: A athiest posted this from youtube. Flat universe argument

#12

Post by ageofknowledge » Fri Nov 20, 2009 5:42 pm

Out of nothing comes nothing. Things do not pop into existence out of nothing. A friend at MIT said that there are many things we cannot measure and we attribute them to weird physics like quantum fluctuations. He believes we are simply limited by what we can measure, so we waive a wand and say they are quantum fluctuations.

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Re: A athiest posted this from youtube. Flat universe argument

#13

Post by Gabrielman » Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:19 pm

ageofknowledge wrote:Out of nothing comes nothing. Things do not pop into existence out of nothing. A friend at MIT said that there are many things we cannot measure and we attribute them to weird physics like quantum fluctuations. He believes we are simply limited by what we can measure, so we waive a wand and say they are quantum fluctuations.
Gee sounds a lot like religious belifs to me, almost like a god..... I love how they can just say this stuff with no facts, but when we say God did it, we are making a non-sense claim not backed by facts. Don't you all just love the double standards?
Once I was trapped in a perpetual night, without even a star to light the sky. Now I stand in the glory of the Son, and not even a faint shadow of darkness remains.

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Re: A athiest posted this from youtube. Flat universe argument

#14

Post by Gman » Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:00 am

Gabrielman wrote:
ageofknowledge wrote:Out of nothing comes nothing. Things do not pop into existence out of nothing. A friend at MIT said that there are many things we cannot measure and we attribute them to weird physics like quantum fluctuations. He believes we are simply limited by what we can measure, so we waive a wand and say they are quantum fluctuations.
Gee sounds a lot like religious belifs to me, almost like a god..... I love how they can just say this stuff with no facts, but when we say God did it, we are making a non-sense claim not backed by facts. Don't you all just love the double standards?
Too true..

"But there is no such thing as philosophy-free science; there is only science whose philosophical baggage is taken on board without examination." Darwin's Dangerous Idea (1995) p.21 Evolutionist Daniel Clement Dennett

Milton Yinger, who wrote The Scientific Study of Religion, stated that religion "can be defined as a system of beliefs and practices by means of which a group of people struggles with these ultimate problems of human life." Some people deal with it by shopping or playing golf. Man is ultimately concerned about his ultimate destiny.

Anything that is seeking to probe or give answers to that question is considered a religious confession. Not just simply to those who have an outward form of worship. Everyone is capable of being religious in that sense.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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