The scientific proof for Genesis

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
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Re: The scientific proof for Genesis

#46

Post by waynepii » Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:33 pm

AoK's instructions will work with some browsers but not all. To the best of my knowledge however, virtually all browsers have some provision for setting the text size. If AoK's instructions don't help, let us know what browser you are using and someone should be able to help.

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Re: The scientific proof for Genesis

#47

Post by Gman » Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:39 pm

We are going way off topic here.. Do you guys mind if I split this topic into a different topic?
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: The scientific proof for Genesis

#48

Post by godslanguage » Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:36 am

Suggestion: If you want to make the font bigger on demand without actually changing the font, then just press and hold CTRL button and use scroll on mouse wheel.
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Re: The scientific proof for Genesis

#49

Post by Swimmy » Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:53 pm

I sent this to a atheist.. This was his reply. I was astounded in certain ares by the intentional lack of reading comprehension on his part. Especially when speaking of the heavens. .But I will post this here for you super smart ones to reply and I will send it back to him.





In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.


- Unfortunately God (or whoever is supposed to pass the message) completely forget to speak about the big bang.
- What heaven are we talking about? the sky or the nonmaterial and invisible place where angels reside?
- Stars was born before the earth. infact our earth is only 4 billion years old with the universe is 13 billion years old. Stars were formed before the earth so God screwed up in the order here.


2.

Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.


- Waters...? Is he talking about that there already is water on earth before the sun is formed?
- What exacly does God mean by 'formless' and 'empty'? Earth hadn't shaped itself yet, meteors still impacting? Then the conditions for water would be impossible.


3.

And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.


- Oh so here we have the creation of the sun, a bit too late. Bear in mind that God doesn't strictly talk about light on earth but simply about light.

4.

And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.


- What..? the expanse water became the sky? Does god really think that the sky is completely made of water? Bear in mind he's not simply talking about clouds but the entirety of the sky.
- this one doesn't do at all.

5.

And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.


- So dry land first appeared here? Thats a wrong order too - earth first had dry land with the magma cooling before water was able to be on earth without vaporishing.
- God still talks about water being on earth before land and thats completely WRONG.

6.

11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.


- Actually.. Plantlife first appeard in the oceans before it moved onto land. So yes again again God is either wrong or completely forgets to mention some important things!

7.

14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.


- Light at night? Does he mean solar reflection from the moon? Im not sure whether or not the moon was able to cast of light at the time as it does now. Has something to do with the dust.
- Or is he talking about stars, of which is completely out of order since there are many stars out there way older than our solar system.

8.

20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth." 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.


- living creatures in the waters.. Am I wrong there to say that plantlife and and living creatures came to be at approx the same time? I cant remember.
- HOWEVER, birds did not evolve that fast!

9.

24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.


- This one is however true, living creatures on land did happen the latest here, except for humans of course.

10.

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."


- not much to say here.. Maybe except for the 'ruling over other animals' part.

11.

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.


- bla, bla. Man apparently came first :S

12.

28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."


- Very nice of God to say "here's earth, do whatever you want with it, its entirely yours".

13.

29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food." And it was so.


- say what, did fruits first appear here? And food as a whole? Did animals simply starve before this?


No, Genesis is *beep* up and not in scientific order at all.

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Re: The scientific proof for Genesis

#50

Post by Gman » Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:51 am

I have read some of his questions, but they were already answered in the pages after. It really doesn't matter anyways, you could explain it away to the exact detail and they still wouldn't get it.. Their mind is already made up.

Good luck..
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: The scientific proof for Genesis

#51

Post by Seeker79 » Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:57 am

I am not a christian, although I had been for some 25 years until recently. Although not technically a scientist, I studied evolutionary biology in college, and have continued to stay informed about new developments in the field, as well as the physics behind the origin of life. I am not advocating any particular view about religion or atheism, but I simply can't swallow the scientific reasoning and explanations given in many parts of the website. Once upon a time Christians held their beliefs independent and necessarily unaware of their physical place in the universe, or even on the earth. The more science develops (ideally without any agenda other than for the sake of understanding the natural world and being able to make predictions), the more that religious beliefs are challenged. Those religious leaders who felt threatened by these new findings had one of two choices: either (1) assert that science and religion should be dealt w/ separately, or (2) address science by accepting the findings and appeal to reason, in a way to make the two conflicting disciplines coalesce. The evidence has become so indisputable and overwhelming, the first choice is now essentially unworkable, and the only option seems to be to present the science in a way that serves a conclusion previously constructed absent any scientific evidence. I'm not here to fight, just to try to challenge and be challenged. Any thoughts?

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Re: The scientific proof for Genesis

#52

Post by cslewislover » Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:18 pm

I haven't made my mind up about some things related to your question. I do believe God created everything, and that through Christ all is held together. When it comes to evolution, I haven't seen any proof that "kinds" have evolved from other "kinds." Yes, there are good reasons to think that it may have happened (like when comparing human and chimp genomes), but other explanations are possible.
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Re: The scientific proof for Genesis

#53

Post by ageofknowledge » Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:09 pm

cslewislover wrote:I haven't made my mind up about some things related to your question. I do believe God created everything, and that through Christ all is held together. When it comes to evolution, I haven't seen any proof that "kinds" have evolved from other "kinds." Yes, there are good reasons to think that it may have happened (like when comparing human and chimp genomes), but other explanations are possible.
Of course there are. Like any good engineer, God very well may have used templates and modified them for each species. Microevolution occurred from there.

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Re: The scientific proof for Genesis

#54

Post by Gman » Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:44 pm

Seeker79 wrote:The evidence has become so indisputable and overwhelming, the first choice is now essentially unworkable, and the only option seems to be to present the science in a way that serves a conclusion previously constructed absent any scientific evidence. I'm not here to fight, just to try to challenge and be challenged. Any thoughts?
Ah, what evidence is so indisputable and overwhelming? Please convince me of it... I'll take your challenge.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: The scientific proof for Genesis

#55

Post by touchingcloth » Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:13 am

Gman wrote:So let's look at the comparison.

Genesis............................Scientific data..................................

1. Heavens and Earth..............1. Big Bang
2. Earth covered in darkness...2. First atmosphere (gaseous silica)
3. Light...................................3. Solar winds exposes the land to light
4. Water vapor (clouds)...........4. Second atmosphere (water vapor, carbon dioxide)
5. Dry land appears................5. Pangea (the first continents)
6. Plant life.............................6. Plant life (early cambrian)
7. Sun, moon, stars visible.....7. Third atmosphere (ozone layer)
8. Marine life..........................8. Marine life
9. Animals..............................9. Animals (cambrian explosion)
10. Humans..........................10. Humans

So what are the chances of the Genesis writer getting this order correct on the first try if he picked random numbers 1 to 10 out of a hat? The first try would be 1 in 3,628,800. Not a very good chance...
I think the actual order is more like this (going by Genesis 1, ignoring the contradictory order in Genesis 2):
Genesis Myth
  1. Heaven & Earth
  2. Light
  3. Firmament
  4. Dry Land
  5. Grass, herbs, trees bearing fruit
  6. Sun, moon & stars
  7. Marine life (fish)
  8. Birds
  9. Whales
  10. Cattle, insects, other beasts
  11. Humans (man & woman)
Then mapping it onto the order of events given by the scientific consensus (sorry it's a bit messy, but there aren't always 1:1 correlations between the Genesis myth and historical events, some events that are stated to occur simultaneously in Genesis, in some cases actually occurred billions of years apart):

Scientific Data.............................................................................................................................Analogue(s) in the Genesis Myth
  1. State of universe/universes pre-big bang, no real scientific consensus here
  2. Big bang................................................................................................................................(1 - Heaven)
  3. The first galaxies form..........................................................................................................(6 - Stars)
  4. Our own Milky Way and Sun form.........................................................................................(6 - Sun)
  5. Earth takes form from our Sun's accretion disk.....................................................................(1 - Heaven and Earth, 4 - Dry land)
  6. Volcanic activity amongst other activity starts to form an atmosphere on the young Earth...(3 - Firmament)
  7. A collision of a proto-planet with the young Earth results in what will become our moon....(6 - Moon)
  8. The first "true" life on Earth forms, in the form of prokaryotes.............................................(7 - Marine life)
  9. Photosynthesis evolves as a trait in some single-celled life..................................................(5 - Photosynthesis used by grass, herbs, trees)
  10. The first fish (or, at least, multi-cellular marine life) evolve.................................................(7 - Fish)
  11. The first land plants evolve..................................................................................................(5 - Grass, herbs - not fruit trees, yet)
  12. The first insects evolve........................................................................................................(10 - Insects)
  13. The first amphibians, then reptiles......................................................................................(10 - Other beasts)
  14. The first mammals..............................................................................................................(9 - Whales, 10 - Other beasts)
  15. The first birds (or, at least, their closest dinosaur ancestors)..............................................(8 - Birds)
  16. The first flowering plants....................................................................................................(5 - Fruit trees - insects needed before this stage)
  17. The Homo genus, eventually leading to Homo Sapiens (us :))............................................(11 - Humans)
I'll flesh this out with hyperlinks to background bits about the relevant scientific theories and bible verses. Even tempted to do something similar for religions from other cultures :)

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Re: The scientific proof for Genesis

#56

Post by Gman » Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:50 pm

touchingcloth wrote:I think the actual order is more like this (going by Genesis 1, ignoring the contradictory order in Genesis 2):
Genesis Myth
  1. Heaven & Earth
  2. Light
  3. Firmament
  4. Dry Land
  5. Grass, herbs, trees bearing fruit
  6. Sun, moon & stars
  7. Marine life (fish)
  8. Birds
  9. Whales
  10. Cattle, insects, other beasts
  11. Humans (man & woman)
Incorrect...

In the fourth day it doesn't say that God created the sun, moon and the stars. It states that he "made" them, which is the Hebrew word "asa" translated as the verb "made". When the Hebrew word "asa" is used it is usually used to denote an action already completed.

Genesis 1:16 And God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also.

Genesis 1:16 simply does not specify when in the past the sun, moon, and stars were made. However in Genesis 1:1, it does says that it was created using the Hebrew word "erets" or "hashamayim we ha' erets," heavens (plural) and the earth (singular). "Hashamayim we ha' erets" consistently refers to the totality of the physical universe. All matter and energy and whatever else it contains....

The creation story is being told as if one was standing on earth. So, in the beginning you wouldn't be able to see the sun that was created on day 1. Why? Because the earth was full of debris that would have clouded the sun's rays.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: The scientific proof for Genesis

#57

Post by touchingcloth » Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:59 pm

When in the past would you say the sun, moon and stars were created then?
The verse you cited (G.1:16) takes place after G.1:13 ("and the evening and the morning were the 3rd day"). The verse you quoted explicitly says they were made.

ETA - your own summary includes sun, moon and stars in the same place that mine does (roughly).

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Re: The scientific proof for Genesis

#58

Post by Gman » Sat Sep 26, 2009 7:21 pm

touchingcloth wrote:When in the past would you say the sun, moon and stars were created then?
The verse you cited (G.1:16) takes place after G.1:13 ("and the evening and the morning were the 3rd day"). The verse you quoted explicitly says they were made.

ETA - your own summary includes sun, moon and stars in the same place that mine does (roughly).
What are you talking about? The sun was created in Genesis 1:1...
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: The scientific proof for Genesis

#59

Post by touchingcloth » Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:59 pm

Gman wrote:
touchingcloth wrote:When in the past would you say the sun, moon and stars were created then?
The verse you cited (G.1:16) takes place after G.1:13 ("and the evening and the morning were the 3rd day"). The verse you quoted explicitly says they were made.

ETA - your own summary includes sun, moon and stars in the same place that mine does (roughly).
What are you talking about? The sun was created in Genesis 1:1...
So "the greater light to rule the day" isn't the sun?

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Re: The scientific proof for Genesis

#60

Post by Byblos » Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:36 am

touchingcloth wrote:So "the greater light to rule the day" isn't the sun?
Have you at all read any of the articles on the main page? If not, please spend some time reading them, you may be somewhat surprised. And if you did read them then your posts make no sense.
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