Oldest known human fossil found in Europe

[Himantolophus]

Did you read the excerpt about fear equals pain.

yeah, that's the point of the article....

The article starts off by saying few. I say none, creatures have pain giving birth.

yeah

Then it goes on to make a absurd claim that pain comes fear and some cultures don't fear birthing therefore no pain.

Why is this absurd? Care to refute the article with another?

Then commit to this concept, market it, and the world is your osyter.

it's not my concept, I wanted to add something to the discussion other than the same thing over and over again

Your presenting this quackery as a rubuttal to me?

Quackery? Rebuttal? We have already rebutted you into the wall.

Do you know anything about researching the science of birthpain?

Resaearch? You have no posted anything to back up your story besides "I'm right because women experience pain and nothing else comes close, and the Bible says women experience pain and so I'm right".

Are you joking?

are you?

This is why creationism always prevails over evolutionism or other ism's that reject Genesis.

and a FYI, we have NOT rejected Genesis. we just interpret it differently and show that it can incorporate modern science.

Especially after you fought me that our women were not unique in birthpain. Then you present a article that is premised on it.

I fought you? I said MANY times that humans are unique because we are the only upright hominid in existence today. That unique body plan makes us susceptable to increased birthpain. Go back and read it.

I have the right to claim a victory on this discussion for the good guys.

Victory? That's a good one... you have not even begun to challenge anyone is this discussion. Don't hurt yourself patting yourself on the back!

[zoegirl]

[Canuckster1127]

All

Disagreement on these issues is fine. No problem on pointing out where you disagree in terms of the validity of a source etc.

Let's watch the tone and try to address the issues and not the person as best we can.

Bart

[Himantolophus]

I wish I knew what the issue was!

I edited the content of my last post

Him basically doing nothing to support his argument or refute ours and him claiming victory because of it. Unbelievable!

[Canuckster1127]

I wish I knew what the issue was!

I edited the content of my last post

Him basically doing nothing to support his argument or refute ours and him claiming victory because of it. Unbelievable!

Don't take it personally. Just a general observation that was admittedly spurred by your post. It was a reminder to myself as well. Just trying to encourage us all to stick the the higher ground when we can. It's completely valid to point out where arguments are not supported or are weak however.

[Himantolophus]

No problem. I may just observe this thread until/if something new is brought up, just to keep my cool haha

[mrpinz]

Evolution confirms there is a unique problem and hustles for a answer.

You mean evolution confirms how the skeleton has developed and how we became upright, which no other animal does, and how this would cause obvious pain due to the hips becoming much closer together?

[Robert Byers]

Evolution confirms there is a unique problem and hustles for a answer.

You mean evolution confirms how the skeleton has developed and how we became upright, which no other animal does, and how this would cause obvious pain due to the hips becoming much closer together?

My opponents argued there was no unique pain for our women as compared to animals. So I educated them that evolution itself admits there is and hustles for a answer to explain it. Including the distaste evolution has for non perfection in body uses. Evolution must show it makes the great organs of our bodies with little or none inefficiency.

Actually becoming upright should of been handled by evolution without complications. Thats the whole glory evolution claims to do.
However evolution is a myth and was not the reason for birthpains. in fact it was a punishment for the fall.
This is why our women alone suffer great and long birthing agony.
Most people are probably ignorant that only women have the severe difficultity in birthing. Most folk probably think the bigger the delivered offspring the greater the pain. Yet elephants throw them out without a whimper.
Birthpain is another good point for creationism.
Cheers

[Himantolophus]

My opponents argued there was no unique pain for our women as compared to animals. So I educated them that evolution itself admits there is and hustles for a answer to explain it.

Byers, you did not "educate us" in anything. Evolution does not hustle to explain anything, evolution PREDICTS the change to an upright hominid would lead to birthpain (contricted pelvis and birth canal), and the prediction was correct. There is no way you can have a human "designed" like H. sapiens and NOT have this arrangement.

Including the distaste evolution has for non perfection in body uses. Evolution must show it makes the great organs of our bodies with little or none inefficiency.

Evolution has no feelings, there is no distaste for anything. Evolution doesn't have any problems with the way our organs are designed. Common ancestry is evident in all the major organ systems.

Actually becoming upright should of been handled by evolution without complications. Thats the whole glory evolution claims to do.

Evolutionary theory HAS explained it.

However evolution is a myth and was not the reason for birthpains. in fact it was a punishment for the fall.

You have provided ZERO support for this "Fall" thing... how did Eve's body change physically after this Fall? You have also failed to provide any evidence that evolution is a myth. Get to work.

This is why our women alone suffer great and long birthing agony.

opinion = not fact

Most people are probably ignorant that only women have the severe difficultity in birthing. Most folk probably think the bigger the delivered offspring the greater the pain. Yet elephants throw them out without a whimper.
Birthpain is another good point for creationism.
Cheers

have you read ANYTHING shown to you on this post? Not only have some posters shown that animals DO experience pain and discomfort, but you have also been shown that humans are the ONLY animal on the planet that has a bipedal existence! THAT is the reason why humans have the worst pain, because they are the only species with the contricted pelvic region and a funky birth canal! It has nothing to do with any Fall, we are the only bipedal organism!

[Anita]

I couldn't resist this one!

Perhaps the answer to this lies within the neuropathic receptors of the body and brain. It stand to reason that after the curse indeed something fundamentally different changed within the human body. IT IS PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE TO NOT FEEL PAIN. Today such marvelous techniques can be used during childbirth such as an epidural which basically freezes the space around the nerves of the spine. But there are other fantastic phenomenon's that can take place within the human body. Such as people who have a genetic mutation that allows them to feel no pain (AND IT IS GENETIC). These people have a inherited genetic mutation that stops them from feeling pain in any part of their body. The mutation is on a gene called SCN9A. It stops a sodium channel, which produces nerve impulses that convey pain signals to the brain from functioning. In fact the drug company Pfizer Inc. already has a new pain relief product in preclinical development based on this genetic discovery. In hindsight, although pain hurts it is a useful sensation because it warns people of danger and injury or if something is too hot or too cold. It also has a survival benefit because when people begin to feel pain they change their behavior to avoid it.

Therefore, if indeed we were in a sustained garden before the curse, we most likely didn't “NEED” to feel pain.

[Robert Byers]

Himan
Then we agree. Women birth pain is worst, I say uniquely bad and unrelated to the minor jabs and discomfort of critters, and needs a a explanation. The writers of the bible were dead on in seeing women as unique. Of coarse they were closer to the animal kingdom.
Your claim that uprightness did it is speculation. Evolution did not predict anything in actual timelines. There is no evidence that uprightness rearanged womens bodies in any way. Guessing on presumptions.
They just see unique pain and presume uprightness is the cause but it is in fact a punishment from God and so the female body was changed.

[mrpinz]

Robert Byers
Actually becoming upright should of been handled by evolution without complications. Thats the whole glory evolution claims to do.

Actually there are many parts of the body which are inefficient that natural selection has explained. The reason for this is because we only need to be as good as our environment to adapt to it.

[obsolete]

Robert Byers
Actually becoming upright should of been handled by evolution without complications. Thats the whole glory evolution claims to do.

Actually there are many parts of the body which are inefficient that natural selection has explained. The reason for this is because we only need to be as good as our environment to adapt to it.

Too bad we "adapted" our environment around us. And what you said does not explain why there are parts of the body that are inefficient.
There is a book you should read called "Darwin's Black Box" by Michael J. Behe. It challenges Darwin's theory on a biochemical level.

[Himantolophus]

Perhaps the answer to this lies within the neuropathic receptors of the body and brain. It stand to reason that after the curse indeed something fundamentally different changed within the human body. IT IS PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE TO NOT FEEL PAIN. Today such marvelous techniques can be used during childbirth such as an epidural which basically freezes the space around the nerves of the spine. But there are other fantastic phenomenon's that can take place within the human body. Such as people who have a genetic mutation that allows them to feel no pain (AND IT IS GENETIC). These people have a inherited genetic mutation that stops them from feeling pain in any part of their body. The mutation is on a gene called SCN9A. It stops a sodium channel, which produces nerve impulses that convey pain signals to the brain from functioning. In fact the drug company Pfizer Inc. already has a new pain relief product in preclinical development based on this genetic discovery. In hindsight, although pain hurts it is a useful sensation because it warns people of danger and injury or if something is too hot or too cold. It also has a survival benefit because when people begin to feel pain they change their behavior to avoid it.

Therefore, if indeed we were in a sustained garden before the curse, we most likely didn't “NEED” to feel pain.

Then we agree. Women birth pain is worst, I say uniquely bad and unrelated to the minor jabs and discomfort of critters, and needs a a explanation. The writers of the bible were dead on in seeing women as unique. Of coarse they were closer to the animal kingdom.
Your claim that uprightness did it is speculation. Evolution did not predict anything in actual timelines. There is no evidence that uprightness rearanged womens bodies in any way. Guessing on presumptions.
They just see unique pain and presume uprightness is the cause but it is in fact a punishment from God and so the female body was changed.

Anita: you posted all of that information but it all begs the question. If humans didn't experience said pain, then obviously those "pain receptors" didn't exist in Eve's time, right? And since the pain is also caused by women's poorly designed and contricted pelvis and birth canal, then you'd also have to assume that women also lacked this Pre-Fall? So, for this "pain to no pain" thing to happen, you would need a significant change, both physically and chemically, in that area after the Fall to allow for pain.

Robert: uprightedness makes plenty of sense because of the observations of the birthing process and the "squeezing and contorting" the baby must deal with. Humans are the only species to suffer as intensely. I don't really see what creationist point you are trying to make because this problem is common knowledge to all. I don't find any of your "Fall" arguments persuasive at all because you provide no evidence for your assumptions. I suppose if we had another bipedal primate on this planet, we could test evolution's explanation, but we can only go on the bones right now.

[Stever]

How do we know if it's that old, and how do we know it was a human(homo-sapien) ?