Origins - Life and "Big Bang" cosmology

[Anonymous]

Dude to make this clear i never said Hawkings was a christian, he's just not atheist that's it.

Mastermind yeah your right proposing the idea that big bang wasn't necessary is just to appease non-christians/non deists as the big bang with singularity really in itself is major evidence for God.

This got way off topic and I don't wanna get into an argument about evolution as Ipazia your mind is made up and even if we had substantial evidence for Christianity you would still find a way around it.

[Anonymous]

Greetings to you all.

I really don't want to get sucked into this particular debate. I only want to post my belief (take it for what it is) and ask one question.

I fully believe the Bible:
-That when it says, "And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." that it means precisely that.
-That God rest on the seventh day.
-That these seven days compose the first 168 hours of Earth's history, nay of the Universe's history.
-That before said week there was nothing (not nothingness), only Almighty God, Creator of all things.
-That in those six days every thing on Earth, above the Earth, and below the Earth were created by Almighty God.
-That Almighty God completed creation in that one week, but that He is still at work within His creation (I.E. Salvation) even today.

What I want to know, my one question, is this:
What is that site for theistic evolution (old earth)??
Thanx,
Doc

[Kurieuo]

I don't know... what is that site for theistic evolution?

Kurieuo.

[Anonymous]

Sorry for not making myself clearer. Earlier in the thread this was posted:

I'm an Old Earth Creationist and if you want to find out about a very good genesis interpretation look in this website.

With no website given.

Thank you much,
Doc

[bizzt]

Sorry for not making myself clearer. Earlier in the thread this was posted:

I'm an Old Earth Creationist and if you want to find out about a very good genesis interpretation look in this website.

With no website given.

Thank you much,
Doc

I believe what was meant is to look within http://www.godandscience.org. Correct me if I am wrong Kurieuo

Thanks Tim

[Kurieuo]

I'm not really sure if that was the intended site as it doesn't fit the theistic evolution criteria. But I could be wrong...

Kurieuo.

[Anonymous]

How is being an OEC have anything to do with evolution?
And yes I meant GodandScience.org, but i don't see how the Day-Age interpretation is talking about evolution?

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

First, I'd like to say that theistic evolution has many problems. I don't know if they were addressed, I scanned quickly.

1st: Calls God stupid, incompetent, the such (He couldn't create everything perfect, so He had to tinker for years and years).
2nd: If Adam came after animals and plants had been dying for years, then you must call God a lier because Adam and Eve's sinning brought death into the world He says.
3rd: Calls God a lier some more. This isn't from me, I'm just passing this along-the terms used in Genesis for day, in Hebrew, mean 24 hour periods.
4th: Even if you consider Genesis a story, the order in which the plants and animals are different than the evolutionists say.
5th: Smarter people have more than those.

Someone mentioned mutations as the source of evolution (along with the good old natural selection). Mutations delete information from DNA, they don't add information for something to evolve. Also, mutations are either fatal, harmful, or neutral. In addition, natural selection, the machinery of evolution, makes sure that mutations cannot add onto mutations and make something new by diluting the error in a population.



Hey, if people look at this still (only a few days stale), what's your education? Like degrees in fields of science, etc...


vvart, nice ending statement...Examples are Nebraska man (tooth of a pig it turns out), Piltdown man (a hoax that fooled scientists and, even now I think, students), Neanderthall (supposed to be a regular human with his jaw pushed forward I've read in two places, who suffered from some bone problems....)




And since the regular question was on computers becoming self-aware.... I don't think they could. Animals are supposedly not even self aware (hopefully, I use the right word there....if not....oops).

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

My bad, I looked at the date and I thought the last one was on the 3rd

[Mastermind]

First, I'd like to say that theistic evolution has many problems. I don't know if they were addressed, I scanned quickly.

I highly doubt they were.

1st: Calls God stupid, incompetent, the such (He couldn't create everything perfect, so He had to tinker for years and years).

Illogical. Why did God take six days? why not an instant? Only God knows, and I highly suggest you don't use arguments in which you give your opinion on God's power. God is ominiscient, we're not. If He sees it best to take six days or a billion years, He's the one to judge how it should be done.

2nd: If Adam came after animals and plants had been dying for years, then you must call God a lier because Adam and Eve's sinning brought death into the world He says.

The verses explicitly state their sin brought humanity's death into the world, not death in general.

3rd: Calls God a lier some more. This isn't from me, I'm just passing this along-the terms used in Genesis for day, in Hebrew, mean 24 hour periods.

Care to provide us with this ominsicient hebrew grandmaster of the words, preferably with a PhD in several language studies that can confirm it? Ever heard of the expression "in the day of etc."? It has its roots in the bible, as many of our sayings do. And let's assume they are 24 hour periods. The literal translation from hebrew ends verses with "the evening and the morning A third tay". Not THE third days. By both assumptions, they did not have to be 24 hour days.

[/quote]4th: Even if you consider Genesis a story, the order in which the plants and animals are different than the evolutionists say.[/quote]

no they are not. Bacteria cam efirst, which supposedly evolved into plants, and made the atmoshpere breatheable for animals. The order is not different.

5th: Smarter people have more than those.

It's quite fortunate that they do.

Someone mentioned mutations as the source of evolution (along with the good old natural selection). Mutations delete information from DNA, they don't add information for something to evolve.

They do neither apart from rare cases. They usually CHANGE information, they don't delete anything.

Also, mutations are either fatal, harmful, or neutral.

I'm afraid that is subjective. i have eyes that are more sensitive to light than average. This is bad, because light is everywhere, i have to wear sunglasses and my eyes turn bad. If our environment suddenly turned dark(or the sun turned deadly and we could no longer go out during the day), my condition, which allows for superior night vision, would become good. This is an extreme example, but I hope you get the point.

Hey, if people look at this still (only a few days stale), what's your education? Like degrees in fields of science, etc...

Im an university studend in management, and waste time researching science stuff in my free time.

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

I'm tired so I'll take the easiest one

They do neither apart from rare cases. They usually CHANGE information, they don't delete anything.

They change information BY deletion. Mutations change the sentence of the DNA by removing a letter or a word, so

Mary has a dog
becomes, when the h is removed
Mary asa d og

Quote:

5th: Smarter people have more than those.



It's quite fortunate that they do.

Do you try to be funny? Or am I just out of it?

And read order in Bible, please....all forms of vegetation, from "less evolved" all the way to good old trees and such, then fish and birds, then land animals...evolution says, just to point to the obvious, that birds came from reptiles which came from amphibians which came from fish.

Also, you miss the obvious, "there was evening and there was morning, a second day" Light-dark-light...hhhmmm...if that's not a day, then I'm a hankerchief. Millions of years of light, millions of years of night, then millions of years of light? HHHhhhmmmm....

And have you realized God sets the standards? 7 day work week, have you noticed? Work 6 days, rest the 7th...(though lazily, we added Saturday for rest )

[Mastermind]

They change information BY deletion. Mutations change the sentence of the DNA by removing a letter or a word, so

Mary has a dog
becomes, when the h is removed
Mary asa d og

Got a secular reference for this? Because it's the first time I hear of it.

Do you try to be funny? Or am I just out of it?

Let's just say I was disappointed with the quality of the information.

And read order in Bible, please....all forms of vegetation, from "less evolved" all the way to good old trees and such, then fish and birds, then land animals...evolution says, just to point to the obvious, that birds came from reptiles which came from amphibians which came from fish.

I have read the order in the bible. It states plants appeared first, which is true. It then states animals appeared second. Notice how God doesn't tell us HOW he made the animals. If He felt like evolving them, it was well within his power, and since the Bible is silent on His procedure, you have proved nothing.

Yu miss the obvious, "there was evening and there was morning, a second day" Light-dark-light...hhhmmm...if that's not a day, then I'm a hankerchief. Millions of years of light, millions of years of night, then millions of years of light? HHHhhhmmmm....

Congratulations, you have missed the point. I fail to see how that states that everything was created in a day. For example:

What it would say if it supported your opinion:
God created the heavens and the earth.
And that was the evening and the morning of the first day.

What it actually says:
God created the heavens and the earth.
And there was Evening, and there was Morning, a first day.


Notice the difference? The actual biblical verses are basically telling us: you figure it out. You have failed to prove that the bible supports your opinion, as the evening and the morning do not belong to the day of creation, but to the day that ends that particular part of God's creation.

And have you realized God sets the standards? 7 day work week, have you noticed? Work 6 days, rest the 7th...(though lazily, we added Saturday for rest )

He set those standards for the Jews, not for everybody, and they were likely symbolic. This site does a great job in explaining all of this, why not read their explanation?

You're welcome to believe what you will of course. I doubt our opinion on the universe's creation time is a factor in a salvation, and the Bible is neutral on the issue anyway.

[sandy_mcd]

They change information BY deletion. Mutations change the sentence of the DNA by removing a letter or a word, so

Mary has a dog
becomes, when the h is removed
Mary asa d og

Got a secular reference for this? Because it's the first time I hear of it.

Google gave this as one:
http://www.genetichealth.com/G101_Changes_in_DNA.shtml
Material below copied from the above website - Sandy

What Kind of Mutations Are There?

A gene is essentially a sentence made up of the bases A, T, G, and C that describes how to make a protein. Any changes to those instructions can alter the gene's meaning and change the protein that is made, or how or when a cell makes that protein. There are many different ways to alter a gene, just as there are many different ways to introduce typos into a sentence. In the following examples of some types of mutations, we use the sentence "The fat cat ate the wee rat" as a sample gene:

Point Mutation
A point mutation is a simple change in one base of the gene sequence. This is equivalent to changing one letter in a sentence, such as this example, where we change the 'c' in cat to an 'h':

Original The fat cat ate the wee rat.
Point Mutation The fat hat ate the wee rat.

Frame-shift mutation
Frame-shift mutations. In a frame shift mutation, one or more bases are inserted or deleted, the equivalent of adding or removing letters in a sentence. But because our cells read DNA in three letter "words", adding or removing one letter changes each subsequent word. This type of mutation can make the DNA meaningless and often results in a shortened protein. An example of a frame-shift mutation using our sample sentence is when the 't' from cat is removed, but we keep the original letter spacing:

Original The fat cat ate the wee rat.
Frame Shift The fat caa tet hew eer at.

Deletion
Mutations that result in missing DNA are called deletions. These can be small, such as the removal of just one "word," or longer deletions that affect a large number of genes on the chromosome. Deletions can also cause frameshift mutations. In this example, the deletion eliminated the word cat.

Original The fat cat ate the wee rat.
Deletion The fat ate the wee rat.

Insertion
Mutations that result in the addition of extra DNA are called insertions. Insertions can also cause frameshift mutations, and general result in a nonfunctional protein.

Original The fat cat ate the wee rat.
Insertion The fat cat xlw ate the wee rat.

Inversion
In an inversion mutation, an entire section of DNA is reversed. A small inversion may involve only a few bases within a gene, while longer inversions involve large regions of a chromosome containing several genes.

Original The fat cat ate the wee rat.
Insertion The fat tar eew eht eta tac.

DNA expression mutation
There are many types of mutations that change not the protein itself but where and how much of a protein is made. These types of changes in DNA can result in proteins being made at the wrong time or in the wrong cell type. Changes can also occur that result in too much or too little of the protein being made.

[Mastermind]

Thanks sandy. I assumed he meant they mutate ONLY by deletion, which your source has proven false.

[Deborah]

found this article. http://doesgodexist.org/MayJun01/TheBig ... Bible.html