Ben Stein - Expelled movie

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
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Re: Ben Stein - Expelled movie

#106

Post by cslewislover » Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:29 pm

Lol. Since I made an order with Amazon today, I ordered that too.
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Re: Ben Stein - Expelled movie

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Post by JCSx2 » Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:53 am

I really like it, excellent documentary.
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Re: Ben Stein - Expelled movie

#108

Post by JC333 » Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:36 pm

I still haven't seen it. Does anyone know the date it comes out on DVD?

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Re: Ben Stein - Expelled movie

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Post by cslewislover » Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:16 am

Hey ho, it already came out, on the 21st. :D
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Re: Ben Stein - Expelled movie

#110

Post by Gman » Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:22 pm

From the movie "Expelled." A quote from evolutionist Dr. Provine, about the consequences of teaching Darwinism...
Provine wrote:"You start by giving up an active deity, then it gives up the hope that there`s any life after death. When you give those two up, the rest of it follows fairly easily. You give up the hope that there's an immanent morality. And, finally, there`s no human free will. If you believe in evolution, you can't hope for there being any free will. There's no hope whatsoever of their being any deep meaning in human life. We live, we die and we're gone."
This quote really stood out for me from the movie... I really can't believe anyone would seriously want to believe or live their life this way... We live, we die and we're gone... Sounds like something to get exited about and fight for. :shakehead: Hey, I'm taking a shower, can you toss me the hair dryer? About the same type of silliness..
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Re: Ben Stein - Expelled movie

#111

Post by Gman » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:15 pm

Dr. Provine forgot about love as well... Because without God we really don't have any "love" either. According to evolution, Love is simply a chemical reaction in your brain cells.. So once those cells are removed from the brain then there is no experience of "love" in that person. It's gone....
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: Ben Stein - Expelled movie

#112

Post by Shulgin » Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:28 pm

Gman,
What in the heck are you talking about??!! You have to believe in a god to love? That's absurd. Of course you are made of chemical reactions, how else do you think you survive. Try not eating and see how long your chemical reactions continue. Are you trying to say that you don't need your chemical reactions if you believe in god? I don't believe in god and my chemical reactions are humming along just fine. And with respect to the ridiculous quote from Provine, I don't understand why you need to believe in an after life to give your life meaning. It's called living for the day, living like each day is your last, living a life of no regrets, etc. This isn't just some hedonistic credo either, it doesn't mean or imply selfishness and debauchery or not caring for others. You spend your days loving and giving and being a great human being without any consideration whatsoever that there may be a reward waiting at the end of it all for being good. You do what is right because it feels good and brings you joy, not for fear of burning in hell. Provine makes a lot of extrapolations in that comment that aren't proven facts, just his suppositions and opinion, which really don't amount to a hill of beans (my opinion).

BTW if you live in a house with an electical system that is up to code with GFIs, you won't get electrocuted by your blowdryer in the shower, try it, really.

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Re: Ben Stein - Expelled movie

#113

Post by cslewislover » Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:10 pm

It may be chemical reactions, but we believe God made those chemical reactions. He is the creator and source of all things, whether it's your digestive system or altruistic behavior.
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Re: Ben Stein - Expelled movie

#114

Post by zoegirl » Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:49 pm

Shulgin wrote:Gman,
What in the heck are you talking about??!! You have to believe in a god to love? That's absurd. Of course you are made of chemical reactions, how else do you think you survive. Try not eating and see how long your chemical reactions continue. Are you trying to say that you don't need your chemical reactions if you believe in god?
NO the point is in the REASON or motivation to love. Without a deity there is no explanation for existence of love. We are just a bunch of reactions. There is no satisfying reason for loving, especially sacrificial love. Even evolutionists have a hard time explaining altruism (note, I know the explanantions, reciprocity,kin selection, etc, so no need to educate, it still doesn't explain the "rightness" of actions, merely the fact that they have currently the solutions....)
I don't believe in god and my chemical reactions are humming along just fine.
YOur unbelief, however, does nothing to disprove the existence of God. Nor does the fact that you are "just humming along fine" with that unbelief mean anything.
And with respect to the ridiculous quote from Provine, I don't understand why you need to believe in an after life to give your life meaning. It's called living for the day, living like each day is your last, living a life of no regrets, etc. This isn't just some hedonistic credo either, it doesn't mean or imply selfishness and debauchery or not caring for others.
Yes, but that's YOUR philosophy. The rapist down the road believes it his right to rape. And he certainly lives for the day, and lives his life with no regrets. After all, his continues to rape knowing that he might very well be caught.

The implication is that without a moral right or wrong we have no way to establist that his rape is something that he shouldn't do. In fact, if that allows him to procreate more than the man down the street who doesn't "live life to the fullest" with "no regrets", then by all means, rape will allow the rapist to reproduce more. Anthropologists believe that rape was a crucial part in human evolution, so why is it wrong now? (other than the fact that society now condemns it)...so if it changes in a thousand years, it won't be wrong?
You spend your days loving and giving and being a great human being without any consideration whatsoever that there may be a reward waiting at the end of it all for being good. You do what is right because it feels good and brings you joy, not for fear of burning in hell.
First, you have no understanding about Christianity. Our doing good is not what keeps us from hell, CHrist's death and resurrection is what redeems us. We do good out of out love for CHrist and our neighbors. THose who do good simply for a reward without understanding this are deceiving themselves.

Secondly, your method is terribly selfish....hey you do good because it gives you joy? What about the tough day at work when you are in traffic and it doesn't bring you joy to allow that person to get in front? What about the co-worker who is a total jerk....it doesn't bring you joy to be nice...shoot it's terribly IRRITATING to be nice to the jerk.

So really, why do you do nice things? And at the heart of it....why should you? If there is no hell, no punishment for bad deeds, then really all it takes if for you to be smarter than the law. Smarter than the average person. Why shouldn't people take advantage of others if they're not smart enough to see through the scam?

If this isn't true, then tell me why you shouldn't steal? Why you shouldn't cheat?

BTW, God never promises to spare us from trials and tribulations. Simply because we trust in HIm does NOT mean that we shouldn't look both ways before crossing the street. And so ,yes, a church steeple with a lightening rod is nothing more than prudent.

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Re: Ben Stein - Expelled movie

#115

Post by Gman » Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:00 pm

Shulgin wrote:Gman,
What in the heck are you talking about??!! You have to believe in a god to love? That's absurd. Of course you are made of chemical reactions, how else do you think you survive. Try not eating and see how long your chemical reactions continue. Are you trying to say that you don't need your chemical reactions if you believe in god?
No... You don't understand. Love is a spiritual aspect that can reside inside you and OUTSIDE of you. Even after you die... According to the atheistic philosophies love is "only" a chemical reaction that lives inside the brain so there is no real love. These chemical reactions only make you "feel" love. Nothing more nothing less.. And when that goes it is gone forever.
Shulgin wrote:I don't believe in god and my chemical reactions are humming along just fine.
Until when?
Shulgin wrote:And with respect to the ridiculous quote from Provine, I don't understand why you need to believe in an after life to give your life meaning. It's called living for the day, living like each day is your last, living a life of no regrets, etc. This isn't just some hedonistic credo either, it doesn't mean or imply selfishness and debauchery or not caring for others.
Not according to Provine... You give up the hope that there's an immanent morality, human free will, and hope whatsoever of their being any deep meaning in human life. There is no reason for this life.. You are simply a robot of the evolutionary process.
Shulgin wrote:You spend your days loving and giving and being a great human being without any consideration whatsoever that there may be a reward waiting at the end of it all for being good.
Why spend your days loving or giving? To hang plaques on the wall? What if my love is to rob people of their money?
Shulgin wrote:You do what is right because it feels good and brings you joy, not for fear of burning in hell.
So according to your interpretation, people become Christians for fear of burning in hell? You have a lot to learn.....
Shulgin wrote:Provine makes a lot of extrapolations in that comment that aren't proven facts, just his suppositions and opinion, which really don't amount to a hill of beans (my opinion).
Sounds like he in on the ball to me... What purpose is there to living without God in your life? To just get my own thrills in life?? Seems rather selfish to me.
Shulgin wrote:BTW if you live in a house with an electical system that is up to code with GFIs, you won't get electrocuted by your blowdryer in the shower, try it, really.
Really? Well I know someone who committed suicide that way... It's not something to experiment with...
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: Ben Stein - Expelled movie

#116

Post by Gman » Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:03 pm

zoegirl wrote:NO the point is in the REASON or motivation to love. Without a deity there is no explanation for existence of love. We are just a bunch of reactions. There is no satisfying reason for loving, especially sacrificial love. Even evolutionists have a hard time explaining altruism (note, I know the explanantions, reciprocity,kin selection, etc, so no need to educate, it still doesn't explain the "rightness" of actions, merely the fact that they have currently the solutions....)
Thanks Zoe!! Good point.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: Ben Stein - Expelled movie

#117

Post by JC333 » Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:31 am

At the end of the movie Richard Dawkins was interviewed. It seemed like he couldn't even justify his arguments for God's non-existence.

Ben Stein asked him what the probablity was that God didn't exist and Dawkins responded with a 99.9% probability, but it seemed like he didn't know how to defend that statistic.

Other than that, I thought the movie was educational and very informative.


P.S. I just finished the movie on Sunday.

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Re: Ben Stein - Expelled movie

#118

Post by Shulgin » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:26 am

Oh Boy,

The comments are typical of what I would have expected. The bottom line is that its not only the evolutionists that have a hard time explaining things, such as altruistic love, so do theologists. The evolutionists tho mostly progress based on fact and experimentation. With that in mind its very likely that evolution will never be proved, it is just a theory after all. As for god, unless he makes an appearance, that question will always be a theory as well. Just because we can't explain altruistic love right now, doesn't necessarily imply it came from a divine being. As for chemical reactions, the information we have about them results from science and experimentation, not from the bible. We know a lot about the physical nature of the universe, but it doesn't come from the bible. Instead we get from that document arcane and obscure ancient references that people are still trying to make heads or tails of to this day. It seems to me that a god would do a bit more for people that leave behid that document as the primary (and arguably only) guide for us. It is interesting that a rapist was brought up in defense of your case Zoegirl, telling perhaps? It is well known that christianity is a reward based system. Many people "become" christians because thats the religion they are indoctrinated into, they don't choose it per se so they don't burn in hell. In christianity you do god's will and go to heaven, don't and you go to hell. Reward/punishment. I had a feeling you guys would jump on my life philosophy, and it is just my philosophy. My point is that you can do good things and love people just because it makes you feel good. Zoegirl is twisting what I meant. I don't do nice things to make myself feel good. I do it because it feels good. When I do something wrong it doesn't make me feel good. And Zoegirl, I do know about chrisitanity, I was raised catholic and that cured me good. Zoegirl, you are enlightened, but millions upon millions have live their lives in fear of burning in hell, the whole hellfire and brimstone thing. They are around you now too. Zoegirl, don't project your behavior on me, you have no idea how I react when I've had a tough day and I let someone in front of my car that may be being a jerk. Perhaps its what I do to get myself out of my funk and bring myself joy. The same can be said of christians by the way, they don't always do whats right either. As for morality, I don't know. I don't think morality and religious belief are inexorably linked. But just because I can't answer why I do good things and don't trample on people, doesn't mean its because of god. I am open minded enough to wait for either god to appear and explain it to me or science to produce a satisfactory explanation that stands up to the rigors of science.

BTW the bible does say ask and you shall recieve. So if your devout leader of the church, truly, honestly prays once for the church to never be struck by lightning, then by god's own word in the bible (in several places) it won't be struck. So why don't all pastors, priests, etc. pray for this and eliminate the need for lightning rods on their churches? One explanation is that prays are never answered, they are all coincidences.

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Re: Ben Stein - Expelled movie

#119

Post by Shulgin » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:34 am

cslewislover wrote:It may be chemical reactions, but we believe God made those chemical reactions. He is the creator and source of all things, whether it's your digestive system or altruistic behavior.
Get that from the bible did ya? So you take the creation story literally? So god sat down at his drawing board and designed crypt cells and intestines and all that? Seems to me someone that smart would leave something more than the bible for us to follow. It is not the direct word of god and has been open to interpretation for 2000 years. I think its time for him to make an appearance and prove all us atheists wrong.

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Re: Ben Stein - Expelled movie

#120

Post by Shulgin » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:44 am

JC333 wrote:At the end of the movie Richard Dawkins was interviewed. It seemed like he couldn't even justify his arguments for God's non-existence.

Ben Stein asked him what the probablity was that God didn't exist and Dawkins responded with a 99.9% probability, but it seemed like he didn't know how to defend that statistic.
Oh don't you worry about that, Dawkins can justify his arguments just fine with facts. Well, to be more specific, evidence that the bible is bunk. It would seem to me that if the divine creator could leave behind a document as ridiculous as the bible as his guide for humanity then he isn't great enough to have created the immense complexity present in the universe. I think the more likely explanation for Dawkins lack of performance is because he was duped into doing the interview and taken out of context by Stein. However, I haven't seen the "documentary" so this is only opinion.

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