Gen 1 Defies Physics Laws

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
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Re: Gen 1 Defies Physics Laws

#91

Post by dad » Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:33 pm

zoegirl wrote:
You have yet to go back and challenge the multiple of examnples of YEC manipulating and conveniently forgetting variables in their equations to figure out the age of the earth AND
.
I think it is true that, in their zeal to defend the truth, and bible, creationists have been sloppy on science. Part of this, I think might be due to the fact most don't really know what they are talking about. But that doesn't matter in the long run, all that much, since they happen to be right anyhow, for different reasons. What they did have, that got them there, was a firm belief that God is real, and His word must be true. Where many have fallen down, is in the whys and wherefores of the whole thing. Like flood geology, trying to make the flood responsible for the fossil record entirely. Like denying all evolution, because there is not enough time for things to have evolved at present rates, etc.

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Re: Gen 1 Defies Physics Laws

#92

Post by dad » Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:48 pm

jenwat3 wrote:They will be robbed of the truth anyway if they don't believe in God's word. Again, it really should'nt matter to those who believe when the earth was created. if you believe that God created it, then how long it took Him should'nt really matter, just that He did create it.
How can they believe God's word, when they have been taught that science knew better, and that it was right, and the bible was fables? Why let them be robbers of His people?

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Re: Gen 1 Defies Physics Laws

#93

Post by IRQ Conflict » Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:52 pm

dad wrote:
IRQ Conflict wrote:..
This might be why:

"Augustine"I would not believe in the Gospels were it not for the authority of the Catholic Church"

Again we have the Satanic idea of man over God.
Well, I may not like a lot of what the guy said, but I think satanic is not the word I would use. I don't agree with a lot the pope says either, but I do like the anti abortion, and lack of Bush's war support. So, why not give Christians the benefit of the doubt? Maybe 'misguided' or something, on some issues.
It may sound harsh, but I believe that anything that is not of the Truth is a lie. And we all know who the father of lies is don't we? Lets not sugar coat it.
I found some really bizzar behavior in the writings of Origen:
Now, why is this guy important, did someone bring him up as a day ager, or something?
Kurieuo wrote:Furthermore, Origen wrote of the first six days as representing the time of work for men, and the seventh (Sabbath) day, lasting the full duration of the world:
  • He [Celsus] knows nothing of the day of the Sabbath and rest of God, which follows the completion of the world's creation, and which lasts during the duration of the world, and in which all those will keep festival with God who have done all their works in their six days, and who, because they have omitted none of their duties will ascend to the contemplation (of Celestial things) and to the assembly of righteous and blessed beings.
Thus, the belief the the days of Genesis 1 were longer than a standard 24-hour day existing long before modern science emerged.
You make some good bible points that seem to support a classical creation view.
Heh, I didn't God did. I just point to them. :)
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1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
1Ti 6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain

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Re: Gen 1 Defies Physics Laws

#94

Post by dad » Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:07 pm

IRQ Conflict wrote:
It may sound harsh, but I believe that anything that is not of the Truth is a lie. And we all know who the father of lies is don't we? Lets not sugar coat it.
Well, don't we also know that all men are liars at least some time in their lives? Did not Peter get rebuked for being the mouthpiece of Satan one time? Should we call Peter Satanic, then? If you maybe were a little clearer in separating the perceived sin (lie) from the sinner (in this case Augustine), by saying the lie was of the devil, rather than leaving the impression that Augustine was possessed, or some such, it might be better.

1Jo 2:22 -Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

I share that sentiment. Who really is a liar, but those that, unlike Augustine, deny Jesus?
I found some really bizzar behavior in the writings of Origen:

"Now, why is this guy important, did someone bring him up as a day ager, or something"

"Kurieuo"Furthermore, Origen wrote of the first six days as representing the time of work for men, and the seventh (Sabbath) day, lasting the full duration of the world:"
Ah. OK. So apparently the guy was a loose bolt from the past. The question is, did his nutty ideas have sway over the church of the day, in a big way? Or were they just more or less ramblings of someone who had too much time on his hands?

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Re: Gen 1 Defies Physics Laws

#95

Post by IRQ Conflict » Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:11 pm

zoegirl wrote:In your response, please don't merely quote scripture but tell me WHY you think that scripture applies.

I provided a link to the source site if you cared to read it. Apparently you didn't. I am not going to go round in circles. You can sit there and spin all day if you want to.

"merely quote scripture" :(
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1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
1Ti 6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain

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Re: Gen 1 Defies Physics Laws

#96

Post by jenna » Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:44 pm

If they truly believed in God's word they would know what was fables and what was truth. And Irq, you shoyld be ashamed to talk to Zoe like that simply because she doesnt share your views. I thought we were all supposed to respect one another's views without putdowns? :shock:
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: Gen 1 Defies Physics Laws

#97

Post by IRQ Conflict » Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:46 pm

dad wrote: Well, don't we also know that all men are liars at least some time in their lives? Did not Peter get rebuked for being the mouthpiece of Satan one time? Should we call Peter Satanic, then? If you maybe were a little clearer in separating the perceived sin (lie) from the sinner (in this case Augustine), by saying the lie was of the devil, rather than leaving the impression that Augustine was possessed, or some such, it might be better.
1Jo 2:22 -Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

I share that sentiment. Who really is a liar, but those that, unlike Augustine, deny Jesus?
I understand what your saying. But upon closer inspection, who was Jesus but the Word of God aka The Holy Bible, The Living Word ect. Here we have someone "having the form of godliness but denying the power thereof".

When someone says they won't believe the Bible (Jesus) save for mans interpretation they are saying they don't believe in Jesus are they not? I know this is thin ice 'a white lie' type of semantic, but I firmly believe in "the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth so help me God"

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

With me it's all or nothing. I can appreciate your view of making a mistake, but what this fella was promoting was outright blasphemy. Lest we forget that God holds those who teach to a higher standard than the rest of us.
Ah. OK. So apparently the guy was a loose bolt from the past. The question is, did his nutty ideas have sway over the church of the day, in a big way? Or were they just more or less ramblings of someone who had too much time on his hands?
Near as I have found he was labeled an apostate.
Hellfire

1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
1Ti 6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain

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Re: Gen 1 Defies Physics Laws

#98

Post by IRQ Conflict » Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:52 pm

jenwat3 wrote:If they truly believed in God's word they would know what was fables and what was truth. And Irq, you shoyld be ashamed to talk to Zoe like that simply because she doesnt share your views. I thought we were all supposed to respect one another's views without putdowns? :shock:

I'm tired of the games is all. I don't appreciate her attacking me and accusing me of doing the things she has blatantly done herself without listening to me.

I give her an answer and she ignores it then asks me for an answer. I don't mind that she doesn't share my views. She just needs to be held to the same standard she is holding to me.

What I mean by 'spin' is that I refuse to get on that merry-go-round lest I get dizzy and puke. I don't like circular arguments. They are not progressive.
Hellfire

1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
1Ti 6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain

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Re: Gen 1 Defies Physics Laws

#99

Post by jenna » Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:55 pm

I do understand your point about "circular" conversations. But it sounded like you told her basically to "sit and spin", and I didn't much care for that. But I do get your point. :?
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: Gen 1 Defies Physics Laws

#100

Post by IRQ Conflict » Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:08 pm

zoegirl wrote:I do trust in the accuracy of the first chapter of Genesis and the vast majoirty of OEC'ers do as well. YOu seem to skip over this quite blithely.
Not true. Re-read my posts.
The context CAN mean a series of days, which you seem to forget
Yes, it does. Day 1, Day 2, Day 3, Day 4, Day 5, Day 6 and Day 7. Nope didn't forget. Again re-read my posts
You have yet to go back and challenge the multiple of examples of YEC manipulating and conveniently forgetting variables in their equations to figure out the age of the earth AND
Again you ignore my requests to deal with Scriptural text before moving on to theory. Again re-read my posts.
You have yet to address each of those verses you quoted before that you used to support a young earth. Go back and descrieb HOW they EXPLICITLY support a young earth.
Why is it that you demand an exegesis from me while you get to point to others explanations? I posted the link along with those Scriptures so that we could discuss them.

Note: I have replied to this post SOLELY for the benefit of Jenna's concerns of my treatment of Zoe.
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1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
1Ti 6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain

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Re: Gen 1 Defies Physics Laws

#101

Post by IRQ Conflict » Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:11 pm

jenwat3 wrote:I do understand your point about "circular" conversations. But it sounded like you told her basically to "sit and spin", and I didn't much care for that. But I do get your point. :?
That sometimes an unfortunate side effect of the net. It's sometimes hard to convey feeling and intent in the heat of conversation. For example hitting the submit button whilst in the middle of an edit can have DIRE consequences. :lol:
Hellfire

1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
1Ti 6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain

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Re: Gen 1 Defies Physics Laws

#102

Post by jenna » Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:16 pm

Thank you for that, IRQ. Please accept my apology if I came across too strong or unfairly judged. It isn't my intention to do that. I've been in heated conversations myself (rarely) (yeah right!) :lol:
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: Gen 1 Defies Physics Laws

#103

Post by IRQ Conflict » Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:34 pm

Meh, it happens. It really doesn't do anyone any good to take offense in a discussion. Ones beliefs should be able to stand on their own merit.

Yelling and screaming won't change the facts. :D
Hellfire

1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
1Ti 6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain

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Re: Gen 1 Defies Physics Laws

#104

Post by jenna » Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:38 pm

True. But I'm yelling and screaming at you now, can't you tell? :lol: Again, hard to have actual conversations over a machine. (See, I just cussed you out and you never knew it!) :twisted:
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: Gen 1 Defies Physics Laws

#105

Post by zoegirl » Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:08 pm

Oy, all right

let's slow down a bit.

You brought up a series of scriptures....as if these scriptrus were helping your case for YEC. What I am asking you to do is to address each one and describe to me WHY these scripture verses support YEC instead of merely pointing out God's nature. I shall adress them and point out why I think they are not verses you can use to solely support a YEC position.
sa 40:12 Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?
Isa 40:13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counselor hath taught him?
Isa 40:14 With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and showed to him the way of understanding?
Isa 40:15 Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.
This points not to the age of the universe but of the power of God in relationship to mankind. NO matter what we determine, we will not equal God in understanding. Also, no mention of age (once again however, if this is your argument, then YEC'ers should remain quiet as well, for NOBODY should attempt to figure out the age question, even your 6000year estimate is trying to "measure out the waters and mete out heaven"0

Isa 40:17 All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
Isa 40:18 To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?
Again...why use this? Says nothing about HOw God created or How long He choose to do so. (notice I use the word choose, I do not doubt God's ability in making the universe in a split second, in six days, or in six billion years, it is WHAT happened that we are looking at)
Isa 40:21 Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?
Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
Again, where is the verse that speaks of how long God choose to take? It merely brings up the fact that these things have been known from the beginning. (NOt when that beginning was)
Isa 40:25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.
Isa 40:26 Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth.
Hmmmm, nothing here about the age of the universe that I can see. SO in what way are these verses useful to your position? Very nice verse, however, and wonderful to hear. God is indeed the one who created these things.
Isa 40:28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.
Hmmmm, NOthing about the age of the universe here. God is powerful and mighty and there is no understanding HIs understanding....nothing about the age of His creation.
Psa 147:4 He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names.
Psa 147:5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
Amen, and amen....great verses....all of them in fact. They point to an amazing God whose power, might, glory, undersading, wisdom, is infinitely higher than ours. But what don't they mention? Hmmm....the age of the universe!
Jer 31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

First of all, in context, these are addressing the new covenant.
This is what the LORD says,
he who appoints the sun
to shine by day,
who decrees the moon and stars
to shine by night,
who stirs up the sea
so that its waves roar—
the LORD Almighty is his name:

36 "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,"
declares the LORD,
"will the descendants of Israel ever cease
to be a nation before me."

37 This is what the LORD says:
"Only if the heavens above can be measured
and the foundations of the earth below be searched out
will I reject all the descendants of Israel
because of all they have done,"
declares the LORD.
Now here I imagine you are wanting to use this verse to demonstrate the evils of measuring the earth and the universe. But I ask you....what is the context of these statements? First of all, I don't think we will ever completely be able to measure God's creation and I have never claimed we will be able to. Does that mean that our current understanding points to anything but an old univers and an old earth? no.... Secondly, we should always be careful to misapply verses. Does this verse mean that we shouldn't measure God's creation? Should we not measure tectonic activity to help predict and measure earthquakes? Should we not try to measure the heavens above to understand earth weather cycles? How far should we take this verse?

Also, again, if this is the purpose of this verse, then YEC'ers need to remain silent as well, for in their insistence about the 6000 years, are they not claiming to know the heavens can be measured?
Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
Amen, and amen....great verse.....Love the book of Job. Hmmm....no mention of the age of hte universe or earth!
Job 26:14 Lo, these are parts of his ways: but how little a portion is heard of him? but the thunder of his power who can understand?
Amen.....again, love the book of Job. But first this points to God and His unmeasurable power and might and glory. Secondly....where is the mention of the age of the earth or universe? Nowhere that I can see.


I do not debate ANY of the scripture above. But how in the world you can think that these support YEC over OEC is beyond me. They all point to the wonder and majesty of God, His power, His wisdom, His unfathomable nature. Do we Old erather's deny this? Absolutely not. God's majesty and power and glory is evident in His creation as well as HIs word and they are both trustworthy.

So, here you have brought up irrelevant verses to the age question. Whereas the only real verse you can point to in in Genesis 1. Again this comes back the word YOM, which certainly CAN mean a 24 hour day. But as I have provided links about, it can very much so mean a progessive series of days. In fact, if, in Hebrew, one wanted to describe a time period with a series of days (longer than 6 days) , YOM is the best word to use!

Your MAtthew verse about Adam and Eve also has nothing to do with the AGE question. IT merely speaks to the Adam and Eve in the beginning but does not address the beginning times. I do not dismiss the historical accuracy of Genesis (as I have said over and over and over again) I and others merely look at the words in the HEBREW and see that it provides a different historical framework.

Now....I have answered your questions.

How about addressing the dreadful inaccuracies in YEC data?

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