Gen 1 Defies Physics Laws

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IRQ Conflict
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Re: Gen 1 Defies Physics Laws

#76

Post by IRQ Conflict » Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:39 am

zoegirl wrote:Irq conflict.

It does seem like you use scripture to imply that those of us who support OEC are somehow compromising God's word.
irqconflict wrote: I just wanted to point out that old earth creationists tend to ignore context and cut and paste scripture to fit within the confines of what they believe to be true. ie 'presuppose'

How in the world can this be taken any other way other than a slap in the face of our faith and understanding of Gods word?
By the same token, am I supposed to tell you that because you believe first that the earth is billions of years old that it's ok to interpret Genesis to fit that OEC model? ie Yom out of context and ignore the ordinal numbers.

I would be intellectually bankrupt if I did that.
Then for any debate, you bring up scripture as if that then implies that if only we would read scripture we would get the point! ALl of the scripture you bring up is fine, great, wonderful, and I agree with it all! But we can use these scripture verses as well. My point is, why should these verses be exclusively for YEC?


Again you accuse me. Go back to those Scriptures and re read them and then read my post as to why I used those Scriptures. I cannot be held responsible for how you take something out of context in which it was put forth. Scripture should be used to instruct and edify. Why you choose not to use Scripture to bolster your position is your decision not mine.
YEs, I react strongly, because you charge that we do not lift God up to the same arena that YEC'ers do.
In reality, only one of our positions on Genesis can be correct right?
If you truly do not hold to this, then gladly will I back off, but I've not seen anything to say that you think we are on equal footing.
My belief that your interpretation of Genesis is wrong in no way says we are unequal.
And being a good steward means that you have to understand what you are stewards over.
Yes. The Earth.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

How can we be good stewards of the earth, its resources, and its creatures, our bodies, our planet, our environment unless we seek to understand God's established rules and laws of these?
How then was it possible for the previous thousands of years without scientific discovery to be good stewards?
Adam and Eve were given a mandate to be stewards over the creation. Does that not mean that they were supposed to learn and understand to the best of their ability God's creation?
Do I need to be a mechanic to take care of my car? A carpenter to take care of my house? The answer is simple. The designers give you the necessary information to maintain the items which you have. Not that I have to learn everything there is to know about those items.

Being a good steward of the earth simply means not destroying abusing or wasting it and follow the Word on how God wants His property to be taken care of.
We don't doubt this principle with money...everybody understands that to be good stewards of our money means that we should understand how to use money and the principles of interest, etc.
So why should our responsibility to God's creation be any different?
Because God did not apply the same rules to the stewardship of the earth with regards to usury and tithes and offerings.

Our responsibility begins and ends with what God Ordained.
Hellfire

1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
1Ti 6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain

IRQ Conflict
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Re: Gen 1 Defies Physics Laws

#77

Post by IRQ Conflict » Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:55 am

dad wrote: You know, I used to have a quiver of respect when I heard the name Augustine. Don't know why, I guess he is well known, or something. The more I hear from the guy, the less respect I have for anything he has to say. I can't recall a single quote from the guy I liked. Not that I read much about him, but from when people quote him.
Anyhow, the question remains, was the old ages thing widely accepted, even in the catholic church?
This might be why:
Augustine wrote:I would not believe in the Gospels were it not for the authority of the Catholic Church
Again we have the Satanic idea of man over God.

As for Origen Adamantius

I found some really bizzar behavior in the writings of Origen:
Origen has always been controversial. His reported self-mutilation, in response to Matthew 19:12 ("… there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven….") was condemned as a drastic misinterpretation of the text. In Palestine he preached without being ordained and was so condemned by his bishop, Demetrius. When on a second trip, he was ordained by the same bishops who had invited him to speak the first time, Demetrius sent him into exile.
Origen did teach that all spirits were created equal, existed before birth, and then fell from grace. Furthermore, "those rational beings who sinned and on account fell from the state in which they were, in proportion to their particular sins, were enslaved in bodies as punishment"—some demons, some men, and some angels. He also believed that all spirits, even Satan, could be saved. "The power of choosing between good and evil is within the reach of all," he wrote.

Most notably, however, Origen described the Trinity as a hierarchy, not as an equality of Father, Son, and Spirit. And though he attacked Gnostic beliefs, like them, he rejected the goodness of material creation.

Lets examine some of what God has to say on this shall we? :D
Christ and the Apostles believed there were people on the earth from the beginning (not billions of years after the beginning):

* Jesus told the Pharisees in Mark 10:6, “But from the beginning of creation, God made them male and female.” Not billions of years after the beginning of creation.
* Jesus says in Luke 11:50-51, “:so that the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, from the blood of Able to the blood of Zechariah:” Jesus obviously believed his first prophet, Able, was there at the beginning — the foundation of the world. Not billions of years after it had been set into motion.
* Jesus also said of Satan in John 8:44, “He was a murderer from the beginning,” making reference to Cain's murder of his brother Able.
* Jesus prophesies about the tribulation in Mark 13:19, “For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of creation that God created until now.” According to Jesus, there has been some measure of tribulation since the beginning. If man didn't enter the picture until billions of years after the beginning, then what was the object of this tribulation?
* Paul writes to the Romans in 1:20, “For his invisible attributes, namely his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world.” First, for the attributes to have been perceived from creation there must have been someone to perceive them. Secondly, this is another passage that supports the idea that the creation is there to point us to God. Why have it sit undergoing mindless processes for billions of years before man is on the scene to marvel at it?
* I Peter 1:20 and Revelation 13:8, 17:8 speak of the Lamb that was slain or the names that were written in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world. What purpose could God have in billions of years of death and decay before his redemptive plan for man was set into motion. The elect were obviously elected from the foundation, why wait?
Here is a link so we can discuss this further.
Hellfire

1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
1Ti 6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain

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Re: Gen 1 Defies Physics Laws

#78

Post by zoegirl » Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:21 am

And thus you see why I react so strongly.

YOu accuse us of compromising scripture.

You use scripture as if it solely supports your position, as if it your your sole posession for defense and apologetics. NONE of those scriptures points to a unique case of YEC. They point to the mysterious and glorious nature of God, unfathomable. Point to me ONE scripture verse that you have used (other than Genesis of course) that even ADDRESSES the age of the universe.

You haven't even addressed the fact that the Hebrew CAN be interpreted differently, or at most only give lip service to it. Still insisting that we ignore scripture at the whim of science, completely ignoring that this is GOD'S creation we are talking about.

YOu insist that we go to to science first. I'll say it again and again. This is God's creation we are talking about! We look at both God's creation and His word and look to see harmony.

You have completely ignored the examples I have provided, only stating fact that they FINALLY stopped using the moon dust example and yet are continuing with at least 15 other misuses of data. DAta which has firm constants behind. You ever wonder WHY it took them so long to give up moon dust?

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Re: Gen 1 Defies Physics Laws

#79

Post by IRQ Conflict » Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:53 am

zoegirl wrote:And thus you see why I react so strongly.

YOu accuse us of compromising scripture.
You do.
You use scripture as if it solely supports your position,
It does.
as if it your your sole posession for defense and apologetics.
It is. And it is a Jewel isn't it?

NONE of those scriptures points to a unique case of YEC.
....funny, I thought they all pointed to a young earth/universe. :?
They point to the mysterious and glorious nature of God, unfathomable. Point to me ONE scripture verse that you have used (other than Genesis of course) that even ADDRESSES the age of the universe.
Mar 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
You haven't even addressed the fact that the Hebrew CAN be interpreted differently, or at most only give lip service to it.
As a matter of fact I have on more than one occasion. But you keep ignoring the FACT that it does NOT point to a long age but to a literal 6 day creation. As I told you in previous posts I will focus on the text of the Word first before delving into mans ideas of what is and what isn't falsifiable.
Still insisting that we ignore scripture at the whim of science, completely ignoring that this is GOD'S creation we are talking about.
Actually, it's Gods Word we should be discussing. Why? Because, like it or not it's ALL about HIM. Not His Creation.
YOu insist that we go to to science first.
I'm sorry, you have that backwards.
I'll say it again and again. This is God's creation we are talking about! We look at both God's creation and His word and look to see harmony.
I'll say it again, It's about the Word, not Creation. The Word explicitly tells us that God Created everything in 6 literal days. I don't care if you say it can be this or it can be that. It is what it is. The Truth.
You have completely ignored the examples I have provided, only stating fact that they FINALLY stopped using the moon dust example and yet are continuing with at least 15 other misuses of data. DAta which has firm constants behind. You ever wonder WHY it took them so long to give up moon dust?
And you have COMPLETELY IGNORED my request to stick to the text and it's interpretation for the time being. Once I'm satisfied that you've given me a reasonable answer as to why you believe the Word tells you that God took countless melania to create everything we can venture into theory.

But for now I'm only interested in Facts.
Hellfire

1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
1Ti 6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain

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Re: Gen 1 Defies Physics Laws

#80

Post by jenna » Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:02 am

Everyone here has interesting points about when the earth was created. The bible says seven days. But God also says "one day is like a thousand years". Would it be possible that it took 7 thousand years to create the earth instead of 7 days? Again, only a question, I don't know the answer. It doesn't really matter to me anyway how long it took. All that's really important to me is that He created it. It really should'nt matter how long it took.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: Gen 1 Defies Physics Laws

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Post by zoegirl » Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:08 am

I have already provided a number of links or explanations for the word Yom, not the mention the explanations provided in the godandscience website. You have not addressed them so until you do, we are at a standstill. YOM can be a series of days and the numbers do not strictly indicate 24 hour days.

None of your verses, including the one in matthew, address the AGE. Matthew states that he creates them in the BEGINNING, but it does not address how the UNIVERSE was created. I do not doubt the historical accuracy of Genesis, merely that it states, INT THE HEBREW, that the days long periods of time.

Why do you think that verse addresses the age issue?!?!

TAke any other verse you brought up previously and tell me exactly HOW that verse EXPLICITLY tells you that God created the heavens and the earth 6000 years ago. (They ARE all jewels, I do not take issue with that....but you have not exxplained why they EXPLICITLY address the age question)

In your response, please don't merely quote scripture but tell me WHY you think that scripture applies.

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Re: Gen 1 Defies Physics Laws

#82

Post by jenna » Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:52 am

Again, does it really matter how long it took for the earth to be created? If it does then WHY? Shouldn't it simply matter that it was?
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: Gen 1 Defies Physics Laws

#83

Post by zoegirl » Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:45 am

jenwat,

I agree with you....but when the argument comes down to "this is the only way to read this Hebrew word" when there are other possibilites and then we are charged with mistreating scripture and not raising GOd to the same level of mysteriousness and awesomeness simply because we examine HIS creation, I will take issue with this.

Personally, I have examined both the scripture and God's creation and see that they both are in harmony, their testimonies agree with each other. I do not see Genesis as an allegory or a cute fable. I see it as a powerful accounting of God's majesty and power and glory, accurate and true to the events of the past. He said it and it happened. But the HEbrew words here have multiple meanings and clearly there are options to the age.

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Re: Gen 1 Defies Physics Laws

#84

Post by IRQ Conflict » Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:54 pm

jenwat3 wrote:Everyone here has interesting points about when the earth was created. The bible says seven days. But God also says "one day is like a thousand years". Would it be possible that it took 7 thousand years to create the earth instead of 7 days? Again, only a question, I don't know the answer. It doesn't really matter to me anyway how long it took. All that's really important to me is that He created it. It really should'nt matter how long it took.
Jenna, This passage was in reference to (in the context of) the second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. And is another example of OEC Scripture plucking.

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
jenwat3 wrote:Again, does it really matter how long it took for the earth to be created? If it does then WHY? Shouldn't it simply matter that it was?
Well, this statement is both true and false. It is true that it matters not how long God decided to take to Create the heavens and the earth.

But it does matter that because God told us how long He took should be of concern. Look at it from my point of view. I believe God said He took 6 days to Create everything and on the seventh day He rested.

Now, Someone comes along and says 'no He didn't'. And their best defense on their posistion is that the word YOM can mean a long period of time (which it can). What they fail to talk about however is the context in which it is written that dictates its meaning. The word in and of itself is meaningless.

Similarly, the word "Age" by itself isn't very telling is it? You see the word and wonder, so? then you might try to put it into the context of something like, what age? How old? Unless the author places it within the context of his message it isn't going to mean squat.

"The AGE of the Universe seems to be" "He was of great AGE" "There were dinosaurs in AGEs past"


I quite honestly couldn't care less if every YEC theory turned out to be false. As long as we don't cut/ paste Scripture. As Paul so rightly said.

Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Last year, I believe it was, we had an elderly gentleman claiming all kinds of education in the Word come on the forums and tell us that being gay was ok. And that the word 'lie' meant not to be dishonest.

Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

If i wanted to, I could say this means that I can deceive a woman but not a man.

When we know that a plain reading of Scripture tells us otherwise. Where does this sort of thing stop? It doesn't. Unfortunately people will believe anything once God isn't the center of their belief system anymore. It gives Satan a foot hold to deceive us into believing what we want.

Everyone saw how absurd this mans attempt at twisting the Truth was. But in science? Because OEC has a similar vain(ity) of thought, that is we see this and measure that so we know a plain reading of Genesis has to be wrong. So what do they do? Pretend the Author didn't mean a literal 6 day Creation. Simple isn't it?

Mar 7:35 And straightway his ears were opened, and the string of his tongue was loosed, and he spake plain.

Now, the above sentence, does it tell you that a man was healed and began describing a grassland?

Let me ask you this. If we can't trust the first few versus of Scripture, how can we trust any of it?
Hellfire

1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
1Ti 6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain

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Re: Gen 1 Defies Physics Laws

#85

Post by zoegirl » Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:55 pm

I do trust in the accuracy of the first chapter of Genesis and the vast majoirty of OEC'ers do as well. YOu seem to skip over this quite blithely.

The context CAN mean a series of days, which you seem to forget

You have yet to go back and challenge the multiple of examnples of YEC manipulating and conveniently forgetting variables in their equations to figure out the age of the earth AND

You have yet to address each of those verses you quoted before that you used to support a young earth. Go back and descrieb HOW they EXPLICITLY support a young earth.

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Re: Gen 1 Defies Physics Laws

#86

Post by dad » Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:08 pm

IRQ Conflict wrote:..
This might be why:

"Augustine"I would not believe in the Gospels were it not for the authority of the Catholic Church"

Again we have the Satanic idea of man over God.
Well, I may not like a lot of what the guy said, but I think satanic is not the word I would use. I don't agree with a lot the pope says either, but I do like the anti abortion, and lack of Bush's war support. So, why not give Christians the benefit of the doubt? Maybe 'misguided' or something, on some issues.
I found some really bizzar behavior in the writings of Origen:
Now, why is this guy important, did someone bring him up as a day ager, or something?



You make some good bible points that seem to support a classical creation view.

The way I see it, since science can't be extended to the past or future, there is no need to try and make the bible fit that. And that is, I think, the root of the problem.

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Re: Gen 1 Defies Physics Laws

#87

Post by dad » Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:20 pm

jenwat3 wrote:Everyone here has interesting points about when the earth was created. The bible says seven days. But God also says "one day is like a thousand years". Would it be possible that it took 7 thousand years to create the earth instead of 7 days? Again, only a question, I don't know the answer. It doesn't really matter to me anyway how long it took. All that's really important to me is that He created it. It really should'nt matter how long it took.
Well, why would we need it to be possible? Would it be possible that it rained at the start of the flood 40 thousand years, rather than days? Would it be possible Jesus went to the heart of the earth to preach to the spirits in prison for 3 thousand years, rather than days?? If so, guess He is still there. Would it be possible that they came to get Jesus in the garden on the third watch of the thousand year day? So, what, He was 750 years old when Judas kissed Him? Would it be possible that the sun stood still for a thousand years? If so, it was a long battle, and man had a groundhog long day that was a thousand years! Ridiculous. Would it be possible that God walked in the garden in the cool of the day, that lasted a thousand years? Would it be possible for plants created a day or whatever, before the sun, lasted a thousand years with no sun?
Would it be possible that the rapture will last a thousand years, and the battle of Armageddon, therefore??? If so, better kiss off the thousand year reign of Christ, as the battle of Armageddon lasts the whole way through!

The sun will be darkened, and moon not give her light, do you think that will be for thousands of years as well?

I will let Jesus Himself answer you here. Think about it,

Joh 11:9 -Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.

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Re: Gen 1 Defies Physics Laws

#88

Post by jenna » Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:25 pm

Ok, first off, let me clarify something. Like I said in my previous post, I was only asking a question, I never said that I did not believe in the scripture. I do appreciate everyone's answers, they do help answer some questions, but I DO believe in what the bible says. Please don't take my questions and twist them into something other than what I was asking. :(
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: Gen 1 Defies Physics Laws

#89

Post by dad » Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:27 pm

jenwat3 wrote:Again, does it really matter how long it took for the earth to be created? If it does then WHY? Shouldn't it simply matter that it was?
To who???? If a child reads that the lifespans of the people like Adam, and Noah add up to about 6000 years, (within a few century possible interpretive allowance) and in school, they say man was evolved into existence millions of years ago, does it matter?
The issue is that man has legions of false claims of old age, and other claims, like that there was no flood, etc, that fly in the face of God's word. Does that matter? Not to me, because I chose to believe God. But it matter to those that have no foundation of faith, because they get robbed of the truth.

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Re: Gen 1 Defies Physics Laws

#90

Post by jenna » Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:33 pm

They will be robbed of the truth anyway if they don't believe in God's word. Again, it really should'nt matter to those who believe when the earth was created. if you believe that God created it, then how long it took Him should'nt really matter, just that He did create it.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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