Shroud of Turin

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
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Re: Shroud of Turin

#91

Post by bippy123 » Mon May 28, 2012 2:00 pm

So this CAN'T be replicate TODAY by what was available to forgers in the past?
Correct, not one scientist has been successfull in recreating the shroud image and all of its unique aspects, whether its with technology of today or with 13th century technology. It is simply more advanced then anything we have today.
To me its a non brainer. This image was a result of what happened when Jesus went through the resurrection process.
My next post will be about some of John Joacksons research on the shroud. Jackson is a premier physicist and I believed he worked at Nasa and was one of the heads of the sturp team that examined the shroud personally in Turin.

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#92

Post by bippy123 » Mon May 28, 2012 2:22 pm

I plan on being one of John Jacksons students at his advanced shroud course in Colorado when time permits (within a year or 2). IM very excited as after that i will have a better scientific and physics understanding of the shroud. From Jacksons studies and point of view the shroud image seems to be leading us into a very advanced physics that science isnt at yet.

Ivellious of course they had this knowledge in ancient times. MY theory is that a time traveler from 4000 ad went back in time for the sole purpose to fool us all about the shroud :mrgreen: :shakehead: y:^o


http://www.shroud.com/trenn.htm

The first few paragraphs arent from Jackson but I believe tie into what he believes about the shroud.

But evidence seems to be accumulating for some type of discrete impact phenomenon, which may have involved light or particle-type radiation. Some even propose that the image formation may have been similar to the "flash photolysis" silhouette effect documented at Hiroshima, which has thus far "evaded scientific explanation" (Zugibe 1988: 175).


Several other aspects of the image on the Shroud also require attention. The image is nearly pointillistic in its formation. Recent research has identified the "pixel" aspect of the radiation impact. The image seems rather a constellation of individual image pixels, each exhibiting a step function character, and each produced individually in some manner. The high resolution photography that this image permits is but one manifestation of the extreme "pixel" character of the original. These image forming "pixels" are "optically terminated," that is, sharply defined at their ends (Moran 1995: 13). Further, the pixels seem to be "the result of particle radiation," whereby the radiation is not diffuse but specific and targeted (Moran 1995:14). It appears as if each atom or molecule were responsible for its own pixel. Hence, it is difficult to account for these technical observations according to standard scientific knowledge.

This however is from Jackson, and it actually requires a new way at looking at the laws of physics as if they were changed in some way.:)

Finally, the image forming process, whatever it was, seems to have occurred nearly instantaneously. John Jackson observed certain "distortion" features of the body image, which suggest that the body was "collapsing" vertically even as it disappeared. Jackson conjectures that "as the Shroud collapsed through the underlying body, radiation emitted from all points within that body discolored the cloth so as to produce the observed image" (1992: 339). Such distortion would apparently require an extremely rapid process, as if the image were recording the vertical collapse of the body even in the act of disappearance. It is difficult to avoid associating such an "act of disappearance" with some type of dematerialization process, presumably of the weak variety. Theoretically, nucleon decoupling would effectively require overcoming the strong nuclear force. The ensuing pion decay would naturally release heavy electrons (muons) that could yield discrete impact events. There are problems, of course, with this scenario. It is easy to dismiss any such "nuclear flash theory" out of hand, since it violates common sense and the laws of physics as known today (Picknett & Prince 1994: 46, 140).

Yet, Jackson, for one, is quite explicit that physics might "have to be modified in order to accommodate" his "unconventional hypothesis," while hoping that the latter will not be rejected merely on the subjective grounds that it is unconventional (1992: 344). In Jackson's view:

It might be that a simple piece of cloth, known as the Shroud of Turin, represents a valid case for rethinking certain concepts of modern science. To this end, I would encourage my colleagues in science to realize that the image on the Shroud of Turin is far from being defined by one radiocarbon test, but could be one of history's greatest scientific puzzles (1992: 344).

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#93

Post by ultimate777 » Mon May 28, 2012 4:09 pm

Pardon me, but I have not gone thru all previous 92 posts, so if this has been covered:

I have heard that the image looks like a photographic negative, and that is what might have happened if Jesus had come to life in the Shroud. Is this true, and if so, how would hoaxers in the 1300s know to do it?

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#94

Post by bippy123 » Mon May 28, 2012 9:55 pm

ultimate777 wrote:Pardon me, but I have not gone thru all previous 92 posts, so if this has been covered:

I have heard that the image looks like a photographic negative, and that is what might have happened if Jesus had come to life in the Shroud. Is this true, and if so, how would hoaxers in the 1300s know to do it?
True Ultimate, not only that , but the connection to the sudarium make it impossible for it to be from the 1300's. The hungarian pray codex also is from the late 1100's and it can be clearly seen that there was an illustration of the shroud of turin on it. The negative aspect of the shroud was discovered by shroud photographer segundo pia in 1898. Plus its the only 2d image on earth with 3d spatial information encoded into it. There is no way we know of to replicate this. This is why I chuckle when Joe Nickell is brought up. If he said it could be done then why didnt they do it allready? An extreme atheist like Joe Nickell would have jumped at this chance and would have been funded millions of dollars by atheist organizations yet they wont do it?

The pollen tests dont by Max Frei are extremely important to trace the trail of the shroud and if Ivellious did any research at all (with an open mind) he would have studied Frei's pollen research and seen that clumped pollen were also found from the area that is now turkey.Remember king akbar and the legend of the shroud curing him :mrgreen:
Its as if God left us a trail of Breadcrumbs for anyone that is open minded to follow it, but he wont give u 100% undisputed proof, and I believe that it is because he wants to leave something left for Faith:), He loves us too much to make us into robots.

Why? Because in 2009 the atheist organization of italy funded an atheist scientist to try and replicate that image. You should have seen the media. They jumped on this like Sharks to blood. Shroud is a forgery, its been replicated!!!! was all over the net everywhere. As soon as all the hoopla was over and the world got to examine this replica made of the shroud it was a total failure.IT had none of the shrouds unique characteristics, yet the media didnt report this part, and this is why alot of people still think the shroud is a forgery. They didnt bother to do a little research into it. The media is very heavily anti christian (especially the secular media in Europe).

There is a video documentary that just came out and it deals exclusively with the c14 tests done on the shroud. How over 13 protocols were violated in that testing, how the secular atheists grabbed control of the testing procedures, and how the main man behind it all was given a million pounds by very wealthy people and for what? For doing the worst c14 testing job of the century. Cardinal ballestrero's actions before and during the testing leaves me curious also. Following this trail leads you all the way to King akbar in eddessa (I believe which is part of modern day Turkey), and the legend of Akbar in which the king was very ill and one of the disciples or close friends brought the shroud to the king and he suddenly recovered from his illness and converted to Christianity.

Remember for the first few hundred years after Jesus was Crucified and rose from the dead, being a Christian would have gotten you killed. That is most likely why there isnt a massive amount of information about the shroud between 33ad and 500ad, But just looking at the art from 550 ad on you will be able to see that the shroud was most like used as the blueprint of describing the way Jesus Looked. Before 550 Jesus was looked very different in Art. The Orthodox Dont call it the shroud of Turin. In factthey call it the shroud of Christ and it had probably been in their possession for hundreds of years. The Key is the Orthodox Iconography.

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#95

Post by DRDS » Tue May 29, 2012 2:30 am

I tell you, I really REALLY enjoy this thread. Mostly because of Bippy's wonderful research into the shroud. This is yet another major boost for my faith. So thank you so much Bippy for your awesome research effort. God bless.

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#96

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue May 29, 2012 5:44 am

Truly Bippy, this is facinating stuff.
Is there any reading that I can download or buy to get all this info in one place?
I would love to have this to read and do further research on.
I thank you deeply for all this info you are passing on.

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#97

Post by Katabole » Tue May 29, 2012 6:45 am

PaulSacramento wrote:Is there any reading that I can download or buy to get all this info in one place?
I would love to have this to read and do further research on.
Paul, I have a book here at home that I've had for about 5 years which can probably be bought at a good bookstore or Amazon.

It's called, "The Turin Shroud: The Illustrated Evidence" by Ian Wilson and Barry Schwortz. Fascinating stuff. Hope that helps you.
Well it may be the devil or it may be the Lord but you know you gotta serve somebody. Bob Dylan

Every one that is of the truth hears my voice. Jesus from John 18:37

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#98

Post by bippy123 » Tue May 29, 2012 9:02 am

DRDS wrote:I tell you, I really REALLY enjoy this thread. Mostly because of Bippy's wonderful research into the shroud. This is yet another major boost for my faith. So thank you so much Bippy for your awesome research effort. God bless.
Thank you DRDS, and God bless you also :). The holy spirit works through us all in many different ways, all we have to say is YES to God.

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#99

Post by bippy123 » Tue May 29, 2012 9:03 am

PaulSacramento wrote:Truly Bippy, this is facinating stuff.
Is there any reading that I can download or buy to get all this info in one place?
I would love to have this to read and do further research on.
I thank you deeply for all this info you are passing on.
Your very welcome Paul, I feel its a duty for every Christian to look into things like this. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ.


My favorite DVD is the fabric of time by Grizzly Adams production.
This Dvd will give you alot of the newer information of the shroud and also
comes with 3d glasses so you can view the hologram they created of the image.
I enjoyed all of this DVD, but dont forget to watch the extras as they have some valuable
information on the sudarium by Ian Wilson,the top historian on the sudarium and the shroud.
They also show how the sudarium was used to cover the face of Jesus by using a live test subject
for the fitting.





Janice bennet-Sacred Blood, Sacred Image : The Sudarium of Oviedo,
New Evidence for the Authenticity of the Shroud of Turin

The Oviedo Cloth - by Mark Guscin

These are the top 2 books on the sudarium. There are very few books written on the sudarium, namely
because it doesnt contain any image at all, but its importance its importance to the shroud
is breathtaking important.

Another Fascinating book I havent read yet is an older book called
The resurrection of the shroud By mark Antonacci. Antonacci was an agnostic
that was constantly getting into arguments with his christian girlfriend,
and one day he decided he had enough with her and Christianity.
He was a lawyer by trade and he set out to prove to her that Christianity
was a fairy tale. He was waiting in line during his lunch break
and he saw a magazine with a picture of the shroud on its front cover.
He then decided to use the shroud as his starting point fordebunking Christianity.
He thought the shroud would be an open and shut case, but evidence after evidence
turned it into a 20 year research study for him, and instead of debunking His girlfriend
and christianity, he became a Christian himself.

If you really want to see some fireworks, try looking for some of Mark Antonaccis email exchanges with Ray Rogers.
Antonacci is one of the more fiery advocates of the shrouds authenticity. They really rip through each other lol.
Ray Rogers is the agnostic chemist from Los Alamos labs and it was his chemical analysis that destroyed the c14 dating
done on the shroud. This is when Ray finally started to believe that the shroud could be the burial shroud of teh historic Jesus. Whats amazing is that Rogers stayed an agnostic even till his death about 6 years back. He even stated on Video that he didnt believe in Miracles, So he held onto hope that there would eventually be a naturalistic explanation for how the shroud image was formed, but even till this day, no one has come even close.
Imagine an agnostic and former agnostic now turned christian going at it no holds barred over the shroud :mrgreen: .

This is why I keep saying if your an atheist, the shroud is like cryptonite to you.
It causes them to go against their precious reason and science and shows them that their
worldview is more emotional then intellectual.
Last edited by bippy123 on Tue May 29, 2012 1:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#100

Post by bippy123 » Tue May 29, 2012 9:08 am

Katabole wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Is there any reading that I can download or buy to get all this info in one place?
I would love to have this to read and do further research on.
Paul, I have a book here at home that I've had for about 5 years which can probably be bought at a good bookstore or Amazon.

It's called, "The Turin Shroud: The Illustrated Evidence" by Ian Wilson and Barry Schwortz. Fascinating stuff. Hope that helps you.

Ian Wilson is one of the best historians on both the shroud and sudarium. Barry Schwartz was the lead Photographer for the sturp team. He is Jewish, so while the shroud finallyconvinced him that this could be the burial shroud of Jesus , he wont say that its the burial cloth of Jesus the son of God, but Jesus the man. He also made a statement about the ab blood found on both the shroud and sudarium, stating that this isnt that good ofa proof since all ancient blood degrades to AB.

I had a debate with someone on a blog about this. The key was when I found the blood work done on King Tuts tomb which was one of the examples of ancient blood that didnt degrade to AB. King tuts Blood is type a2, So schwartz was wrong on this.

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#101

Post by Swimmy » Wed May 30, 2012 12:04 am

bippy123 wrote:
ultimate777 wrote:Pardon me, but I have not gone thru all previous 92 posts, so if this has been covered:

There is a video documentary that just came out and it deals exclusively with the c14 tests done on the shroud. How over 13 protocols were violated in that testing, how the secular atheists grabbed control of the testing procedures, and how the main man behind it all was given a million pounds by very wealthy people and for what? For doing the worst c14 testing job of the century. Cardinal ballestrero's actions before and during the testing leaves me curious also. Following this trail leads you all the way to King akbar in eddessa (I believe which is part of modern day Turkey), and the legend of Akbar in which the king was very ill and one of the disciples or close friends brought the shroud to the king and he suddenly recovered from his illness and converted to Christianity.
Link? Source?

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#102

Post by bippy123 » Wed May 30, 2012 12:37 am

Swimmy wrote:
bippy123 wrote:
ultimate777 wrote:Pardon me, but I have not gone thru all previous 92 posts, so if this has been covered:

There is a video documentary that just came out and it deals exclusively with the c14 tests done on the shroud. How over 13 protocols were violated in that testing, how the secular atheists grabbed control of the testing procedures, and how the main man behind it all was given a million pounds by very wealthy people and for what? For doing the worst c14 testing job of the century. Cardinal ballestrero's actions before and during the testing leaves me curious also. Following this trail leads you all the way to King akbar in eddessa (I believe which is part of modern day Turkey), and the legend of Akbar in which the king was very ill and one of the disciples or close friends brought the shroud to the king and he suddenly recovered from his illness and converted to Christianity.
Link? Source?
Swimmy, Thank God you asked me to post my source link because my short term memory is so bad that I almost lost it and almost forgot how to find it. Turned out it was a tumblr site link. YESSSSSS I finally found it again :mrgreen:

It doesnt look like this DVDmight not be available yet , but if anyone can post a link to a site offering it for sale, this could be fascinating. It deals specifically about the c14 testing


http://www.mandy.com/1/film3.cfm?id=15976
http://holyshroud.tumblr.com/post/21855 ... -by-rai-at

One of the hosts of the documentary is Rosalinda Celentano who played the devil in the passion of christ movie.


there is a youtube video clip from the documentary here http://holyshroud.tumblr.com/

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#103

Post by Philip » Wed May 30, 2012 4:01 pm

Bippy wrote: "Philip im surprised that after I posted all my evidences about the shroud that you would post an article from joe nickell."
Bippy, relax! My post was in no way an endorsement of the linked article, nor of anyone's contentions within it. It was merely an FYI that an article about it was currently in the news. Also, my post apparently stimulated exactly what I had hoped, specific commentary about the contentions and individuals within the article.

In consideration of all of the impressive technical characteristics of the shroud, especially the negative image and inexplicable/apparent non-replicable way in which it was produced, it all begs a very big question: IF only an unimaginably clever fake, one must ask, WHY? I mean, IF it were a medieval (or even earlier) fake, then it would have been created merely to adequately fool those of the time period. It would have been totally unnecessary - not to mention appearing technically impossible - to create an artifact of such unimaginable sophistication. A negative image (of which no one can explain how it was produced), using the correct 1st century fabric weave? These would have been entirely unnecessary, as who looking at it would have known the difference than if it had merely been a cleverly painted cloth. Even an obvious (by today's standards) fake, using a corpse, some blood, and inflicting upon it scripturally similar wounds, would have been way more than enough to pass for a convincing relic of the day. But those insistent that it is impossible that the Shroud is anything but a faked relic would also have us believe that the forger was so technically gifted that he can even fool modern technical tools of immense analytical sophistication - and even WITH such modern tools, we STILL can't explain it. Even IF technically possible, no ancient forger would have spent the time and sophistication to pull off a hoax - certainly not in an era in which crosses made from wood (supposedly from THE Cross) and golden chalices of Christ proliferated.

I'm beginning to believe the Shroud is the REAL deal. But, to me, as with all impressive apologetics materials, you just can't PROVE God or Jesus to anyone. You can't hold Him in your hands and say, "Here He IS!" It will always require faith! However, when I see mountains of highly compelling evidences on one side of a scale and, in contrast, mere small handfuls of sand on the other side, it's a no brainer for me which side of the scale is gonna bang the floor. A few evidences here and there may well be coincidental. But huge volumes of evidence don't just coincidentally come together in such a was as that they can also stand up to rigorous and comprehensive analysis. And to me that is the case with the apologetics evidences of God and His creation. After long and sincere investigation, one just has to make up his mind to NOT believe in order to remain unconvinced of the truths found in scripture.

What I would strongly suggest, to anyone trying to discern the truth or non truths of the Bible, is to just go sit in a quiet spot where no one can see or hear you, and do the "atheist's experiment." Simply ASK GOD TO REVEAL HIMSELF TO YOU! If you are merely talking to the wall and you happen to never get an answer - what have you lost? But I can guarantee you that NO man, SINCERELY and SERIOUSLY seeking to see if God is both a Reality and whether He is a PERSONAL God, will fail to receive an answer. You may not receive an immediate lightening bolt, and His answer may at first seem subtle, or you might have one of those "Paul on the road to Damascus" moments in which the answer is undeniably obvious. But I can GUARANTEE you that God WILL show a sincere man the truth when he seeks it!
Last edited by Philip on Thu May 31, 2012 4:55 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#104

Post by bippy123 » Wed May 30, 2012 4:44 pm

Philip wrote:
Bippy wrote: "Philip im surprised that after I posted all my evidences about the shroud that you would post an article from joe nickell."
Bippy, relax! My post was in no way an endorsement of the linked article, nor of anyone's contentions within it. It was merely an FYI that an article about it was currently in the news.

MY appologies Philip. At time I get a bit too passionate about the shroud. Its something I really have to work on, and it isnt very Christ like of me.

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#105

Post by bippy123 » Wed May 30, 2012 8:09 pm

In consideration of all of the impressive technical characteristics of the shroud, especially the negative image and inexplicable/apparent non-replicable way in which it was produced, it all begs a very big question: IF only an unimaginably clever fake, one must ask WHY? I mean, IF it were a medieval (or even earlier) fake, then it would have been created merely to adequately fool those of the time period. It would have been totally unnecessary - not to mention appearing technically impossible - to create an artifact of such unimaginable sophistication. A negative image (of which no one can explain how it was produced), using the correct fabric weave (of the 1st century)? These would have been entirely unnecessary, as who looking at it would have known the difference if it had merely been a cleverly painted cloth. Even an obvious (by today's standards) fake, using a corpse, some blood, and inflicting upon it scripturally similar wounds would have been way more than enough to pass for a convincing relic of the day. But those insistent that it is impossible that the Shroud is anything but a faked relic, would also have us believe that the forger was so technically gifted that he can even fool modern technical tools of immense analytical sophistication - and even though WITH modern tools of such highly technical analytical capability, we STILL can't explain it. Even IF technically possible, no ancient forger would have spent the time and sophistication to pull off a hoax - certainly not in an era where crosses made from wood supposedly from THE Cross and golden chalices of Christ proliferated.

I'm beginning to believe the Shroud is the REAL deal. But, to me, as with all impressive apologetics materials, you just can't PROVE God or Jesus to anyone. You can't hold Him in your hands and say, "Here He IS!" It will always require faith! However, when I seen mountains of highly compelling evidences on one side of a scale, and, in contrast, mere small handfuls of sand on the other side, it's a no brainer for me which side of the scale is gonna bang the floor. A few evidences here and there may well be coincidental. But huge volumes of evidence don't just coincidentally come together in such a was as that they can also stand up to rigorous and comprehensive analysis. And to me that is the case with the apologetics evidences of God and His creation. After long and sincere investigation, one just has to make up his mind NOT to believe to remain unconvinced of the truths found in scripture.

What I would strongly suggest, to anyone trying to discern the truth or non truths of the Bible, just go sit in a quiet spot where no one can see or hear you and do the "atheist's experiment." Simply ASK HIM! If you are merely talking to the wall and you happen to never get an answer - what have you lost? But I can guarantee you that NO man, SINCERELY and SERIOUSLY seeking to see if God is both a Reality and whether He is a PERSONAL God, will fail to receive an answer. You may not receive an immediate lightening bolt, it may at first seem subtle, or it may be one of those "Paul on the road to Damascus" moments and undeniably obvious, but I can GUARANTEE you that God WILL show a sincere man the truth when he seeks it!
[/quote]


This post puts things in perfect perspective :mrgreen:
and its probably my favorite post:)

also why would the forger put the image in the space of desto , instead of making it exactly like the old art is which shows the nails put through his fingers.
Plus the Microscopic pollens found on the sudarium which matches up perfectly with its very accurate history.
Ivellious kept saying that all we had to go on with the sudarium are the words of catholic monks, but its amazing how the pollen found on the sudarium match its history to the last detail. This is the major reason why the shroud and sudarium is hated with a passion by atheists and skeptics. Too much evidence to ignore

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