Shroud of Turin

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
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Kurieuo
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Re: Shroud of Turin

#16

Post by Kurieuo » Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:45 pm

Wow... going through some older posts there... :) Let me just say, I have a little more faith in the shroud today than I did back then.

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#17

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:33 pm

Kurieuo wrote:Wow... going through some older posts there... :) Let me just say, I have a little more faith in the shroud today than I did back then.
Funny you say that because I was thinking the same thing. :shock:
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#18

Post by bippy123 » Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:11 am

Looks like you guys have "resurrected" a thread of one of my favorite subjects. I might as well post a little more info here. This has to do with the master hologram that Doctor Petrus Soons had made from the 3d information on the shroud . This stuff is even more exciting then the other evidence.
http://www.ohioshroudconference.com/papers/p24.pdf

In the PDF article you will notice that when the masterholograph was made, even more information was starting to show up. They found an image of an amulet under the beard area and what else the noticed were 3 hebrew letters I believe on that amulet which are ayin-aleph-nun in Hebrew is translated as "small cattle,sheep, goats", but in the translation from Hebrew to Aramaic of psalm 119:176 (not sure if this is from the Talmud or the bible) Ibn Ezra translates this word as AN which is Aramaic for THE LAMB.

We all know who the lamb is folks. Seems to support scripture doesn't it:)

Another fascinating aspect of this is that Doctor Soons and others are starting to find holographic information on the shroud itself and they believe that holographic I formation is sent non locally which means that the resurrection is a universal event. Once they find all of the holographic information on the shroud they will be able too see even more details then what scientists have now about the shroud, plus they will be able to create a full image of the shroud from any tiny fragment of the shroud.

I really hope this research is carried out asap because the image on the shroud won't be with us forever as it will one day fade because of the harmful effects that light has on it, this is also why they won't be putting the shroud on display again until 2025, just our luck

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#19

Post by bippy123 » Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:15 am

Hey guys I finally found one of my old bookmarks on the shroud. It's a very good YouTube video presentation by Doctor Kenneth Stevenson who was the spokesperson of the original STURP team. It focuses more on the blood and wounds on the shroud image. This will give you a very good understanding of how well the wounds match up with the accounts in scripture.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aszb47co ... ata_player

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#20

Post by Kurieuo » Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:30 am

bippy123 wrote:Hey guys I finally found one of my old bookmarks on the shroud. It's a very good YouTube video presentation by Doctor Kenneth Stevenson who was the spokesperson of the original STURP team. It focuses more on the blood and wounds on the shroud image. This will give you a very good understanding of how well the wounds match up with the accounts in scripture.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aszb47co ... ata_player
Ok, I'm a believer in the shroud, especially in light of more recent knowledge.

This is up there with with the Star of Bethlehem.

Between the shroud and heavens, seems God did leave quite miraculous evidence of Himself with Christ. Not to mention the obvious Gospels we have to fill in the details.

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#21

Post by bippy123 » Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:15 pm

Kurieuo wrote:
bippy123 wrote:Hey guys I finally found one of my old bookmarks on the shroud. It's a very good YouTube video presentation by Doctor Kenneth Stevenson who was the spokesperson of the original STURP team. It focuses more on the blood and wounds on the shroud image. This will give you a very good understanding of how well the wounds match up with the accounts in scripture.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aszb47co ... ata_player
Ok, I'm a believer in the shroud, especially in light of more recent knowledge.

This is up there with with the Star of Bethlehem.

Between the shroud and heavens, seems God did leave quite miraculous evidence of Himself with Christ. Not to mention the obvious Gospels we have to fill in the details.
Kurieuo, wow im gonna start reading up on the star of bethlehem, i'll also watch that video after lunch. Ill also get more information on the shroud posted this week or weekend. You will be shocked to see what happened during the carbon dating fiasco, and who benefitted from it, and how many protocols were broken.

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#22

Post by bippy123 » Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:26 pm

Kurieuo, just finished watching the full YouTube video. Wow is all I can say. The lawyer is very thorough in going through this. It's like God wrote it all in the stars before it happened, and I tend to agree with him about the maji being of Jewish descent as they went to worship the king of the Jews .

I soaked that up like a sponge , fascinating stuff. Lawyers are so good at getting to the evidence
God bless

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#23

Post by Ivellious » Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:31 pm

Bippy, not to be contradictory or mean, but just like to point out that lawyers are also professional liars and people who can tell any side to a story flawlessly without concern for truth. Just sayin, I know lawyers, and they are very open about that fact of their job (also the reason why I decided NOT to go to law school haha).

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#24

Post by Kurieuo » Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:49 am

bippy123 wrote:Kurieuo, just finished watching the full YouTube video. Wow is all I can say. The lawyer is very thorough in going through this. It's like God wrote it all in the stars before it happened, and I tend to agree with him about the maji being of Jewish descent as they went to worship the king of the Jews .

I soaked that up like a sponge , fascinating stuff. Lawyers are so good at getting to the evidence
God bless
So did you end up watch all the parts? :) I couldn't stop watching it myself. Made the hairs stand up on end, especially the eclipse. I'm sure it's the way the video was produced too, but felt very real seeing Jesus die in the stars.

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#25

Post by Kurieuo » Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:50 am

Ivellious wrote:Bippy, not to be contradictory or mean, but just like to point out that lawyers are also professional liars and people who can tell any side to a story flawlessly without concern for truth. Just sayin, I know lawyers, and they are very open about that fact of their job (also the reason why I decided NOT to go to law school haha).
That's probably a good idea (not going to law school). I mean, I'd hate to have to lie the rest of my life. :P

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#26

Post by bippy123 » Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:04 am

Ivellious wrote:Bippy, not to be contradictory or mean, but just like to point out that lawyers are also professional liars and people who can tell any side to a story flawlessly without concern for truth. Just sayin, I know lawyers, and they are very open about that fact of their job (also the reason why I decided NOT to go to law school haha).
I agree totally Ivellious, and it's a shame that most lawyers will put money and pride before the pursuit of truth, and this is why I believe that antonacci's book is just a primer for people just getting into shroud research, but what can't be denied is the impact it had on antonacci who became so obsessed with the shroud that he dedicated 20 years to it's research and corresponded through emails with many scientists, plus remember he had converted to Christianity at the end if his research. He also started the search wanting to prove his Christian girl friend wrong.Antonacci also got into it with some of the sturp scientists as well even though the agreed on a 1st century date of the cloth, they disagreed on why the c-14 test was incorrect.

What's more fascinating is the current ENEA research that shows the image was most like formed by some kind of short burst of radiation of incredible power, but one area of research I do agree with antonacci on is what happened during the resurrection.

Ask yourself how those blood stains could have been so perfectly made without smearing if someone moved Jesus's body off the tomb or if Jesus himself got up from off the tomb. It would have been impossible to do so unless Jesus passed right through the tomb, meaning he dematerialized through the shroud and materialized right after.

This is one of the reasons that antonacci got into it hard with ray Rogers (one of the chemists for sturp from Los alamos labs ) and Barry schwartz ( the lead photographer if sturp), as they both believed that the shroud wrapped around Jesus in the first century Jesus (Rogers stated this on video) but believe that a natural explanation will be formed.

Schwartz is Jewish and while the evidence lead him to believe that the shroud wrapped around Jesus his religiius beliefs wouldn't allow him to believe it wrapped around Jesus the son of God . Rogersis an agnostic who stated on video that he doesn't believe in miracles.

Schwartz also stated that scientists said that all ancient blood degrades to type AB , so he claimed that this couldnt be used as evidence from the shroud (since type ab blood was found on both the shroud and sudarium)but when I researched this I found that he was wrong since the blood of king tut and his brother were found to be type a2 and I pointed it out on another shroud forum.

But your right about being a lawyer, I wouldn't want to be one either hehe
Last edited by bippy123 on Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#27

Post by bippy123 » Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:07 am

Kurieuo wrote:
bippy123 wrote:Kurieuo, just finished watching the full YouTube video. Wow is all I can say. The lawyer is very thorough in going through this. It's like God wrote it all in the stars before it happened, and I tend to agree with him about the maji being of Jewish descent as they went to worship the king of the Jews .

I soaked that up like a sponge , fascinating stuff. Lawyers are so good at getting to the evidence
God bless
So did you end up watch all the parts? :) I couldn't stop watching it myself. Made the hairs stand up on end, especially the eclipse. I'm sure it's the way the video was produced too, but felt very real seeing Jesus die in the stars.
Yea I did watch all of it. I was amazed that all of this info was there for anyone that researched it hard enough and dude, that guy researched it into the ground, almost OCD like. I was very impressed with his work. He seemed and he found:)

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#28

Post by Ivellious » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:25 pm

haha I wasn't totally ripping your stance there. Just saying that his place as a lawyer shouldn't make his research more valid than someone else's ;)

I don't know much about the shroud, personally. I know it's controversial, that's about it.

Also, my only real question would be this: If the cloth is real, why does Jesus look like a white, European male when there is zero chance that Jesus looked like that? It also does match the general medieval depictions of Jesus in Europe at the time...again, seems kind of odd if Jesus was absolutely not Caucasian. Just curious if there is any known reason for that?

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#29

Post by jlay » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:42 pm

If you have seed the show where they use cgi to give an accurate representation of the face on the shroud, you see that there is no reason to see it as Anglo. The reason you see it that way is because it is essentially a photo negative.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/face-je ... d-10248139
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#30

Post by bippy123 » Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:35 pm

jlay wrote:If you have seed the show where they use cgi to give an accurate representation of the face on the shroud, you see that there is no reason to see it as Anglo. The reason you see it that way is because it is essentially a photo negative.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/face-je ... d-10248139

Exactly Jlay, This is the problem with someone who takes one quick look at that black and white photo, and im still shocked that the history channel (which I usually dont like watching) allowed someone to do an unbiased show on what Jesus would look like, and the face that they come out with lookspretty accurate for that area. I would know this very well as my parents come from lebanon which is on the border of Israel and that face looks very common to me as coming from that region.

Ivellious, I understand, and yes most lawyers are that way these days. This is why I said antonaccis book was a starter book and not something for someone looking who has a general understanding of why the shroud image cant be fully duplicated today. Antonacci had alot of infighting with rogers and schwartz, once you get on antonacci's bad side it was hard getting off , I hope I never have to go into court with him on the opposing side lol hehe.

Ivellious, If you want to really get into this research, I would be starting with the evidences that indisputably link the shroud with the sudarium of Oveido, and the hungarian pray manuscript. The pray manuscript blows the carbon 14 dating tests out of the water by itself. Combine it with the forensic evidence found by Doctor Max Frei (the famous swiss criminologist) and you will see why most scientists and shroud researchers were baffled at the results of the c-14 tests which lead to Professor Ray Rogers finding the reweave area suggest by benford and marino.

What will shock you guys even more is the way in which the c-14 tests were conducted. The many protocols violated in that test. and how 3 people after cutting a piece of the shroud off, then went into a sealed room where cameras werent even allowed to do the c-14 testing. Thats anotehr story unto itself.
I wished that I didnt erase those bookmarks :(,

Lets not even mention the April 11, 1997 arson fire in which someone (and they never found out who) tried to burn the shroud by burning the church that houses it. IF it wasnt for a very heroic italian fireman the shroud would have been toast by now.

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