Shroud of Turin

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
Locked
bippy123
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1918
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:56 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 93 times
Been liked: 30 times

Re: Shroud of Turin

#1111

Post by bippy123 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:10 am

PaulSacramento wrote:My understanding is that the radiation emit by this event, which caused the image to be engrained into the cloth, is the same type of energy that God is composed off ( for lack of a better way of putting it), it is the "founding energy" of the universe.
This radiation that is given off by God ( again for lack of a better way of describing it) is why Moses' fine shinned and why the high priest would have to be adorned in gold ( protection against radiation) when going into the Holy of Holies and why he would have to cleanse himself before and after, why when Jesus is seen in his glory ( as the Son of Man) His face shines and so forth.
Yes Paul, and again very accurately described when you said "for lack of a better way of describing it), but I never knew about Gold's protection against radiation , wow!

It also reminds me of the transfiguration of Christ on the mountain top when he shined brighter then the sun. Some scientists such as professor Fanti believes that some form of corona discharge came out from Christ's Body as he resurrected , others such as professor fleming believed it was bio-electrical energy produced by every cell in his body that did it. The simple fact is that no one has seen anything that could produce an image with all of these qualities . The technology is so advanced that even 2000 years later 21st century slime e still can't fully explain it.

bippy123
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1918
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:56 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 93 times
Been liked: 30 times

Re: Shroud of Turin

#1112

Post by bippy123 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:17 am

EssentialSacrifice wrote:Hey there Storyteller. this really makes me smile .. and I bet bippy's face is aglow too ...

"I have to resist speed reading the posts as I want to get to the end of the thread yet at the same time I want to absorb it all. The thread gives me goosebumps!"

This is absolutely how it makes me feel. Bippy's last post including Prof. Jackson's cloth collapse theory had me right where you intimate .. couldn't read enough fast enough!

Here's another place to fill your basket... http://www.history.com/shows/the-real-f ... body-model. It's a History Channel special that is representing the face of Jesus through the computer enhanced imagery of the Shroud. It includes many names and events described in a number of Bippy's youtube supplied for us. I am horrible on the computer, and cannot link worth a darn, but this is a start and perhaps you can get the whole 2 hour event, not just this slide show.

If you get the History Channel, it will be on again, almost certainly during Easter, so if you can catch it or DVR it, you'll be very pleased and understand even more.
Thanks for the link my friend , I almost forgot about it. As I watched the first few minutes again those same goosebumps came back again hehe, then I saw lawrence krauss's face for a short 15 seconds and the goosebumps were replaced with something else :pound:

Here is the full documentary as one man tries to digitally bring the face if the shroud image to life . If you thought you had goosebumps now wait until u see the look on the mans face who computerized the image when it was complete .

http://youtu.be/WNJPJ4JwHeE

bippy123
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1918
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:56 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 93 times
Been liked: 30 times

Re: Shroud of Turin

#1113

Post by bippy123 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:19 am

Storyteller wrote:Alice in Wonderland is a perfect description :)

It`s an unbelievably amazing relic indeed.

(Gotta shoot now, should be back later, will try and read some more tonight)
Hehe thanks Annette Have a great day :)
God bless you my friend

EssentialSacrifice
Advanced Senior Member
Posts: 851
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:19 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Has liked: 118 times
Been liked: 66 times

Re: Shroud of Turin

#1114

Post by EssentialSacrifice » Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:38 pm

Thanks for the link my friend absolutely bud, my pleasure... especially to find another who's all over the Shroud.

If you thought you had goosebumps now wait until u see the look on the mans face who computerized the image when it was complete . Again, absolutely, but the one I remember the best is when he digitally removed the weave design to uncover the bodily damage done via the scourging and all else He had to endure. Truly brought tears to my eyes and his. Thinking about what He intentionally went through as a human for us to be saved from ourselves.... knowing He is God and still, without any seeming benefit for Himself, just for our sake ... truly the ultimate definition of love in the most horrible of all human events. Hope Storyteller is as thrilled as can be.

Glad we're on board together. :amen:
Trust the past to God’s mercy, the present to God’s love, and the future to God’s providence. -St Augustine

User avatar
Philip
Board Moderator
Posts: 8693
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:45 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Betwixt the Sea and the Mountains
Has liked: 416 times
Been liked: 652 times

Re: Shroud of Turin

#1115

Post by Philip » Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:07 pm

That Bip Boy, enthusiastic doesn't even begin to describe him! :lol:

User avatar
Storyteller
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3053
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:54 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: UK
Has liked: 188 times
Been liked: 340 times

Re: Shroud of Turin

#1116

Post by Storyteller » Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:31 pm

EssentialSacrifice wrote:Thanks for the link my friend absolutely bud, my pleasure... especially to find another who's all over the Shroud.

If you thought you had goosebumps now wait until u see the look on the mans face who computerized the image when it was complete . Again, absolutely, but the one I remember the best is when he digitally removed the weave design to uncover the bodily damage done via the scourging and all else He had to endure. Truly brought tears to my eyes and his. Thinking about what He intentionally went through as a human for us to be saved from ourselves.... knowing He is God and still, without any seeming benefit for Himself, just for our sake ... truly the ultimate definition of love in the most horrible of all human events. Hope Storyteller is as thrilled as can be.

Glad we're on board together. :amen:
There are no words.

I love you all, am so grateful to be sharing this with you.

Thrilled doesn't even begin to explain it.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

bippy123
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1918
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:56 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 93 times
Been liked: 30 times

Re: Shroud of Turin

#1117

Post by bippy123 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:28 pm

EssentialSacrifice wrote:Thanks for the link my friend absolutely bud, my pleasure... especially to find another who's all over the Shroud.

If you thought you had goosebumps now wait until u see the look on the mans face who computerized the image when it was complete . Again, absolutely, but the one I remember the best is when he digitally removed the weave design to uncover the bodily damage done via the scourging and all else He had to endure. Truly brought tears to my eyes and his. Thinking about what He intentionally went through as a human for us to be saved from ourselves.... knowing He is God and still, without any seeming benefit for Himself, just for our sake ... truly the ultimate definition of love in the most horrible of all human events. Hope Storyteller is as thrilled as can be.

Glad we're on board together. :amen:
Amazing isn't it my friend . I just got done watching it with my friend Mikhail who is a Christian convert from Judaism ( had an nde and saw. Christ)and he literally was crying . I remember ray downing saying that the man on the shroud looked like he had been hit by a car . Damage and blood everywhere .

Christ had the choice to say no anytime but went through it because he loved us perfectly . It's that perfect love that makes me hunger for him :)

bippy123
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1918
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:56 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 93 times
Been liked: 30 times

Re: Shroud of Turin

#1118

Post by bippy123 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:29 pm

Philip wrote:That Bip Boy, enthusiastic doesn't even begin to describe him! :lol:
Heheh yea Philip , I'd throw in looney , out there in left field at times , and very blessed to have Christ and all of here in my life :)
God bless u my friend

bippy123
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1918
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:56 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 93 times
Been liked: 30 times

Re: Shroud of Turin

#1119

Post by bippy123 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:31 pm

Storyteller wrote:
EssentialSacrifice wrote:Thanks for the link my friend absolutely bud, my pleasure... especially to find another who's all over the Shroud.

If you thought you had goosebumps now wait until u see the look on the mans face who computerized the image when it was complete . Again, absolutely, but the one I remember the best is when he digitally removed the weave design to uncover the bodily damage done via the scourging and all else He had to endure. Truly brought tears to my eyes and his. Thinking about what He intentionally went through as a human for us to be saved from ourselves.... knowing He is God and still, without any seeming benefit for Himself, just for our sake ... truly the ultimate definition of love in the most horrible of all human events. Hope Storyteller is as thrilled as can be.

Glad we're on board together. :amen:
There are no words.

I love you all, am so grateful to be sharing this with you.

Thrilled doesn't even begin to explain it.
The feeling is mutual my friend . How lucky and blessed we all are to know the one who loved us so much to go through all this for us. I wince at the thought of what he went through ,let alone going through it myself .
Last edited by bippy123 on Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Katabole
Valued Member
Posts: 365
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:42 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Gap Theory
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 19 times

Re: Shroud of Turin

#1120

Post by Katabole » Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:04 pm

John 20:7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.

There is a tradition regarding the folded napkin in Jewish folklore:

In order to understand the significance of the folded napkin, you have to understand a little bit about Hebrew tradition of that day. The folded napkin had to do with the traditional concept of Master and Servant which can be found in various passages in the Jewish Talmudic writings.

When the servant set the dinner table for the master, he made sure that it was exactly the way the master wanted it. The table was furnished perfectly, and then the servant would wait, just out of sight, until the master had finished eating, and the servant would not dare touch that table, until the master was finished. Now if the master was done eating, he would rise from the table, wipe his fingers, his mouth, and clean his beard, and would wad up that napkin and toss it onto the table. The servant would then know to clear the table. For in those days, the wadded napkin meant, 'I'm done'. But if the master got up from the table, and folded his napkin, and laid it beside his plate, the servant would not dare touch the table, because the folded napkin meant, I'm coming back.

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Bip you wrote, "There is a story online Where someone supposedly analyzed the second image of the face of the shroud found on the backside that was recently discovered in 2002 and he says that in this image the eyes are wide open."

Bip, I know it's purely speculation, but do you think that the resurrected Christ folded the napkin (Greek soudarion) while in the tomb immediately after the resurrection event, in order to signify that He was indeed returning a second time? Why would John in his gospel mention something so insignificant as a folded cloth if it were not important? If that is the case, that might be an explanation for the second image on the shroud with the eyes open, that the resurrected Christ who was emitting intense light energy had to pick up the napkin and/or bend over the shroud in the tomb to fold it? So the second face would in fact be the living face of the resurrected Christ?
bippy123 wrote:PaulSacramento wrote:
My understanding is that the radiation emit by this event, which caused the image to be engrained into the cloth, is the same type of energy that God is composed off ( for lack of a better way of putting it), it is the "founding energy" of the universe.
This radiation that is given off by God ( again for lack of a better way of describing it) is why Moses' fine shinned and why the high priest would have to be adorned in gold ( protection against radiation) when going into the Holy of Holies and why he would have to cleanse himself before and after, why when Jesus is seen in his glory ( as the Son of Man) His face shines and so forth.

Yes Paul, and again very accurately described when you said "for lack of a better way of describing it), but I never knew about Gold's protection against radiation , wow!

It also reminds me of the transfiguration of Christ on the mountain top when he shined brighter then the sun. Some scientists such as professor Fanti believes that some form of corona discharge came out from Christ's Body as he resurrected , others such as professor fleming believed it was bio-electrical energy produced by every cell in his body that did it. The simple fact is that no one has seen anything that could produce an image with all of these qualities . The technology is so advanced that even 2000 years later 21st century slime e still can't fully explain it.
That is partly an explanation why the Bible states in a number of places no one in the flesh can see God and live. The light energy would be so intense it would destroy flesh.

I always felt that the two following verses were applicable in part to describe God's character. The New Testament verse can be understood literally. The Old Testament verse is more mysterious. Both can be applied to understanding the light energy which formed the shroud image.

Psalm 104:2 Who covers yourself with light as with a garment, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain.

1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
Well it may be the devil or it may be the Lord but you know you gotta serve somebody. Bob Dylan

Every one that is of the truth hears my voice. Jesus from John 18:37

Danieltwotwenty
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2879
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:01 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Aussie Land
Has liked: 37 times
Been liked: 11 times

Re: Shroud of Turin

#1121

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:22 pm

Katabole wrote:
That is partly an explanation why the Bible states in a number of places no one in the flesh can see God and live. The light energy would be so intense it would destroy flesh.

I always felt that the two following verses were applicable in part to describe God's character. The New Testament verse can be understood literally. The Old Testament verse is more mysterious. Both can be applied to understanding the light energy which formed the shroud image.

Psalm 104:2 Who covers yourself with light as with a garment, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain.

1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
I know this is a little off topic but if the fundamental building blocks of the universe are just energy, does that make the universe God in some way and we are a part of him as he is a part of us? It sounds a little pantheistic (sort of not really) to me, but if God is pure energy(will?) then it kind of all makes sense in a way. What is energy, is it material or immaterial??

This is by far my most favourite thread to read, it always has me thinking.

Thanks for the bit on the folded cloth, very interesting.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

bippy123
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1918
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:56 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 93 times
Been liked: 30 times

Re: Shroud of Turin

#1122

Post by bippy123 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:26 pm

Katobole, wow I didn't know about that tradition either, very interesting . What we know about the napkin is that in Jewish tradition if a man dies on the cross and his face was brutally beaten they would wrap his head with a face napkin which is a sudarium .

Now most people might not be familiar with this but there is a head napkin in Spain which is called the sudarium of Oviedo it has blood stains on it but no image . When scientists overlaid the sudarium of Oveido on top of the head image if the shroud there was an amazing 125 points of congruence between the 2 cloths in the blood stains . Even the nose of the man of both relics measured 8 centimeters ( me and Jesus both have middle eastern noses ;) ) .

This obviously tells us that the shroud and the sudarium covered the same man at close time intervals of probably an hour or 2 . The sudarium's history is indisputable going all the way back to 614 ad where it was hidden in the cave of saint mark in Jerusalem and moved ahead if an invading Persian army . The pollen on the sudarium matches the Jerusalem pollen found on the shroud but it also gives a very good account if the different countries that the sudarium moved through until it found its home in oveido Spain where it is housed today in a church.

All of to is is detailed in the link below . Marc guscin of Spain is the worlds foremost expert on the sudarium.
https://www.shroud.com/guscin.htm

Now whether a Jesus himself or nicodemus or one of the woman folded the sudarium isn't known but what katabole said makes allot if sense and he is drawing from biblical tradition . Could this have been one of the reasons that the 2 apostles saw and believed ? Hmmmmm :)

One if the videos I posted was a presentation from the shroud conferene frim Cesar barta and they analyzed some of the dirt from the sudarium and it was a similar match to the dirt found at Golgotha . I found this to also be very exciting.
It's amazing isn't it folks . It's almost like a Sherlock Holmes mystery . Guys and gals you got ur private eye hat on? :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

bippy123
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1918
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:56 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 93 times
Been liked: 30 times

Re: Shroud of Turin

#1123

Post by bippy123 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:37 pm

Danieltwotwenty wrote:
Katabole wrote:
That is partly an explanation why the Bible states in a number of places no one in the flesh can see God and live. The light energy would be so intense it would destroy flesh.

I always felt that the two following verses were applicable in part to describe God's character. The New Testament verse can be understood literally. The Old Testament verse is more mysterious. Both can be applied to understanding the light energy which formed the shroud image.

Psalm 104:2 Who covers yourself with light as with a garment, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain.

1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
I know this is a little off topic but if the fundamental building blocks of the universe are just energy, does that make the universe God in some way and we are a part of him as he is a part of us? It sounds a little pantheistic (sort of not really) to me, but if God is pure energy(will?) then it kind of all makes sense in a way. What is energy, is it material or immaterial??

This is by far my most favourite thread to read, it always has me thinking.

Thanks for the bit on the folded cloth, very interesting.
Danieltwotwenty wrote:
Katabole wrote:
That is partly an explanation why the Bible states in a number of places no one in the flesh can see God and live. The light energy would be so intense it would destroy flesh.

I always felt that the two following verses were applicable in part to describe God's character. The New Testament verse can be understood literally. The Old Testament verse is more mysterious. Both can be applied to understanding the light energy which formed the shroud image.

Psalm 104:2 Who covers yourself with light as with a garment, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain.

1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
I know this is a little off topic but if the fundamental building blocks of the universe are just energy, does that make the universe God in some way and we are a part of him as he is a part of us? It sounds a little pantheistic (sort of not really) to me, but if God is pure energy(will?) then it kind of all makes sense in a way. What is energy, is it material or immaterial??

This is by far my most favourite thread to read, it always has me thinking.

Thanks for the bit on the folded cloth, very interesting.
Daniel . Interesting question but it doesn't have to be pantheistic . There is a belief system called panentheism which is followed by the greek Orthodox church and some evangelicals . It literally means all in God and God in all. I know of an evangelical that holds to weak panentheism .

Im not totally sure about weak panentheism either because it seems to limit the power of God as solely being a part of this universe . I believe that he could sustain the universe and also be separate from it . Daniel I think that God is more then energy . I believe that he thought us into existence . Is thought energy or is it more ? But weak panentheism is still within mainstream Christianity but strong panentheism isn't .but then again the quote you brought from the bible that God is light makes me think hard about what you said .

This is a video put out by a Christian whose name is inspiring philosophy on YouTube that explains how some forms of panentheism like process theology are not compatible with Christianity but one called weak panentheism is .
http://youtu.be/_xki03G_TO4

He has some great physics videos such as this one titled quantum physics debunks materialism where he shows that idealism is. The easiest way to explain quantum reality .
http://youtu.be/4C5pq7W5yRM

He has an excellent website as well . He is also supported by a physics major who knows his stuff .

Danieltwotwenty
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2879
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:01 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Aussie Land
Has liked: 37 times
Been liked: 11 times

Re: Shroud of Turin

#1124

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:28 am

Thanks for the vids bip, I have always kind of imagined it like it was explained in the first video, I guess I am a weak panentheist. :mrgreen:
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

bippy123
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1918
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:56 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 93 times
Been liked: 30 times

Re: Shroud of Turin

#1125

Post by bippy123 » Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:42 am

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Thanks for the vids bip, I have always kind of imagined it like it was explained in the first video, I guess I am a weak panentheist. :mrgreen:
It still falls well within mainstream Christianity daniel. I'm not one but I could see and respect the belief .
This guy is a thorn in atheists side as a few have tried to debunk him , but he's very calm and cool.
Kind of like how William lane craig refutes them with as smile on his face .

Locked