Shroud of Turin

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1096

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:36 am

Our faith is to based on reason.
A crucial element, the most crucial, is the resurrection of Our Lord.
There is testimonial evidence of His resurrection and that is great BUT the shroud may be archaeological evidence also, not to mention that it could be scienfitic evidence of an event that science has yet to be able to explain.
There is nothing wrong with pursuing the evidence that the shroud is giving us to wherever it may lead.

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1097

Post by EssentialSacrifice » Tue Feb 24, 2015 2:11 pm

Creation wrote

Why do you assume, that the image is that of Jesus? Note this is a different question, than, is the shroud real, which is a pretty dumb question, because it is clearly a cloth with an image. However no one knows who's image it is, which is why the Catholic Church will not say that the image is that of Christ.


I think this is a big step forward ... the initial findings ( from decades ago until very recently) of the Shroud put in to suspect the authenticity of it's origins all together. Now, it's far more scientifically and spiritually accepted as "something" of an extraordinary event. An event here-to-fore established as impossible but for a forgery of some kind. Obviously that forgery claim has been rendered moot with (see bippy's wonderful files of you tube) scientific reasoning and physical examination of the cloth.

Here, however is something I wondered. Is this the only one? Is there another burial cloth with which to compare results. I Googled the heck out of this and found all sorts of burial cloth references, but none were of any significant help in procuring another for simple transference test with the Turin Shroud. Soooooo this led me to one of two conclusions (I'm sure there are more in grayer areas). But in B&W terms, either the shroud is of individual significance or it is only one among others who have displayed the same post death imaging. I believe the significance of the shroud's imaging is that of an individual occurrence, for two reasons ...

1) had this imaging been other than spectacularly singular, then by results of all the other imaged shrouds ( perhaps only most of the others ) would appear in historical text as an average event and as common as hair and nails continuing to grow after death.

2) There would be no reason to pack it away as an important article for posterity. Literally no reason other than the original owner ( finder ) would even keep it other than the miraculous. There's the word that informs us miraculous of it's being the actual burial cloth of Jesus. Were it anything other than a one off event, the claim would be unsubstantial.

Science has once again proven well it's place in the world. ( again, please see bippy's youtube collection ) (dude, you're the best for supplying all )... science will always be a step behind God, ( it has to be ) as He has done what He has done since the very beginning and science ( since about 2500 years ago ) does all it can to figure out how. But that is the best science can do... look into the realm of God and explain in human terms the hows fairly accurately, but not the why's.

The why's, of course are bolstered, emboldened and elevated by the scientific method and it's findings. The wise are upheld in their beliefs similarily and spiritually.

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1098

Post by bippy123 » Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:27 am

Exactly essentials, with the shroud science can take us so far. Science and history can also make a case for its authenticity.
Add reason and critical thinking and so far the explanation to me that makes any sense at all is that this image is the actual burial shroud of Christ. Notice I said Christ and not just Jesus.

Science can't prove the divine or a resurrection , it can only refute most natural causes as the best explanations for this image. Once the shroud gets a hold of you , it won't let go as it pulls you in deeper and deeper.

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1099

Post by Storyteller » Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:10 pm

It's got me well and truly hooked!

And I'm only on page 30.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1100

Post by bippy123 » Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:36 pm

Storyteller wrote:It's got me well and truly hooked!

And I'm only on page 30.
Annette ,,it only gets better :mrgreen:

There is a story online Where someone supposedly analyzed the second image of the face of the shroud found on the backside that was recently discovered in 2002 and he says that in this image the eyes are wide open .

I'm not going to post it here until it is confirmed be used I just can't see this when I'm looking at the pops and the person doing the analyzing is a but confusing at times . Can't tell if he's talking about the second shroud image or the Veronica veil.
Lets see what happens when more scientists check this out . I just can't make it out myself .

What I'm waiting for (as I've always said on here ) is doctor Petrus Soons and the holland lab research on the holographic information . Once that holographic stuff is fully decoded the sparks will,really fly .

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1101

Post by Philip » Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:49 pm

What I'm waiting for (as I've always said on here ) is doctor Petrus Soons and the holland lab research on the holographic information . Once that holographic stuff is fully decoded the sparks will,really fly .
Bip, heard any estimates as to when that might be complete?

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1102

Post by EssentialSacrifice » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:47 pm

Hey kids...

Well, I have been enamored by the Shroud for some time and the more I get to know the more I am intrigued, surprised and (especially lately) fulfilled. I have a background in old school photography and am perhaps overly sensitive to the uses of light ( fstops, time etc.. ). One of the very first things I noticed, way back when was the uniformity of the image. Quite honestly, I thought the image was either a contact image or perhaps a true forgery that somehow withstood the tests of time from either the Church and or scientist / skeptics of any given era.

Ok, so the surprise is on me ... again. (Anybody else ever notice how often this happens the deeper you go in to God's realm ? ) So the Shroud is approx. 14' long and is uniformly imaged from head to toe covering both the front and back of he subject's body. The events' startling similarity to the apostles immediate knowledge that Jesus had indeed risen and was not taken from the cave hit me like a ton of bricks. There is no way that any singular light source could have created the image. Imagine you under your covers with a flashlight. Notice the intensity of the light nearest the source on the bed sheet, and the way that same light, at the same time diffuses outward from the strongest portion of the flashlight's beam. This is how light works ... basically in straight line symmetry that renders a 6' subject on both sides of the Shroud absolutely impossible from any source other than one that could cover all the cloth ( 6' on both front and back ) simultaneously .

That light source was not available then. In fact, it is not available now without a completely controlled area that would allow for multiple exposures ( front and back ) all the while allowing for only the image and not the contact blood stains that were obviously found on the Shroud also. If this were just a light source, the blood stained portions would not have been spared, as they are on the Shroud, from the lights penetrating ray.

Of all the reasons, and there are many, as bippy has allowed all to see in his youtube videos, the physical universe is measured, weighed and distance verified by the use of light. Light is a universal cosmological constant that simply does not allow for "special effects" any more than water cannot be called wet. It's a given.

This is my most direct line to the miraculous, the very reason I believe it is the burial shroud of God, because, quite honestly, only God could have performed such a miracle, to completely interpret the full image without distortion, without substance (paint, dyes etc...) without error. Truly miraculous, and almost completely, verifiabley
undeniably unable to be refuted after all the scientific evidentiary analysis it has been subject to.

Storyteller, I'm 62 and just as hooked now as when I first realized what I was looking at then. Feels pretty cool , huh ? y[-o<
Trust the past to God’s mercy, the present to God’s love, and the future to God’s providence. -St Augustine

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1103

Post by bippy123 » Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:08 pm

Philip wrote:
What I'm waiting for (as I've always said on here ) is doctor Petrus Soons and the holland lab research on the holographic information . Once that holographic stuff is fully decoded the sparks will,really fly .
Bip, heard any estimates as to when that might be complete?
Philip that's the frustrating part . Not a beep out of the labs . I have a feeling that when it does happen its gonna hit out of the blue . It's gonna be fun though to see the secular blogs scrambling for damage control :mrgreen:

When all of the holographic info is decoded they will be able to create a full shroud image from even the tiniest shroud fiber , and not just that but it will give us a complete shroud image before the 16th century fire burnt the upper arm images off, and who knows what else this image will show us ? It will take shroud research literally to a new level . Maybe even a quantum level. :)

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1104

Post by bippy123 » Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:23 pm

Essential, great post . I'm very happy and excited to have someone with photographic knowledge talking about the shroud. What I'm most intrigued about is the fact that the light went straight up and straight down , but no side images at all. This is what has baffled shroud researchers for a long time .

The other part is the blood clots . They are anatomically perfect . No ripping or smearing . Imagine wrapping a bloodied , beaten corpse with a burial shroud , then either the corpse takes off the shroud or the body is stolen. If either if the scenarios happened the blood clots would have either been torn or smeared (if the blood had t dried yet), but we don't see any if this happening with the blood clots on the shroud .

The man of the shroud left that shroud in an unnatural manner.

Physicist John Jackson in his cloth collapse theory said that the body of the man on the shroud became dimensionally transparent and passed right through the shroud . Also that image couldn't have been formed if the shroud had remained on the body .
http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com/20 ... ional.html

Jackson here claims that his cloth collapse theory explains all the characteristics of the shroud . In it Jackson says that when it comes to the shroud we must think in terms of a new physics .

U might wanna check out some of Barrie Schwortz's video presentations since he was the documenting photographer on the sturp team and also knows his photography .

He will be planning a presentation in Orange County in October and I hope to make it there .
He's probably my favorite sturp guy

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1105

Post by Storyteller » Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:11 am

ES... I`m 44 and fairly new to Christ (though I have always believed in God) I knew next to nothing about the shroud before reading Bippy`s thread and yep, it has got me absolutely hooked. It`s truly, utterly mind blowing! I have to resist speed reading the posts as I want to get to the end of the thread yet at the same time I want to absorb it all. The thread gives me goosebumps!

Again Bips, thank you from the bottom of my heart for sharing, it has helped me on my journey more than I can express.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1106

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Feb 26, 2015 7:47 am

My understanding is that the radiation emit by this event, which caused the image to be engrained into the cloth, is the same type of energy that God is composed off ( for lack of a better way of putting it), it is the "founding energy" of the universe.
This radiation that is given off by God ( again for lack of a better way of describing it) is why Moses' fine shinned and why the high priest would have to be adorned in gold ( protection against radiation) when going into the Holy of Holies and why he would have to cleanse himself before and after, why when Jesus is seen in his glory ( as the Son of Man) His face shines and so forth.

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1107

Post by EssentialSacrifice » Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:20 am

Hey there Storyteller. this really makes me smile .. and I bet bippy's face is aglow too ...

"I have to resist speed reading the posts as I want to get to the end of the thread yet at the same time I want to absorb it all. The thread gives me goosebumps!"

This is absolutely how it makes me feel. Bippy's last post including Prof. Jackson's cloth collapse theory had me right where you intimate .. couldn't read enough fast enough!

Here's another place to fill your basket... http://www.history.com/shows/the-real-f ... body-model. It's a History Channel special that is representing the face of Jesus through the computer enhanced imagery of the Shroud. It includes many names and events described in a number of Bippy's youtube supplied for us. I am horrible on the computer, and cannot link worth a darn, but this is a start and perhaps you can get the whole 2 hour event, not just this slide show.

If you get the History Channel, it will be on again, almost certainly during Easter, so if you can catch it or DVR it, you'll be very pleased and understand even more.
Trust the past to God’s mercy, the present to God’s love, and the future to God’s providence. -St Augustine

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1108

Post by Storyteller » Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:34 am

I`ll have a look at that, thanks ES!

I do indeed get the History Channel so will keep my eyes peeled.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1109

Post by bippy123 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:56 am

Storyteller wrote:ES... I`m 44 and fairly new to Christ (though I have always believed in God) I knew next to nothing about the shroud before reading Bippy`s thread and yep, it has got me absolutely hooked. It`s truly, utterly mind blowing! I have to resist speed reading the posts as I want to get to the end of the thread yet at the same time I want to absorb it all. The thread gives me goosebumps!

Again Bips, thank you from the bottom of my heart for sharing, it has helped me on my journey more than I can express.
Your very welcome Annette, in truly believe that it's no coincidence that we all ended up on this forum discussing topics such as these . I never knew what the shroud was myself until 2009 when a loud group of atheists invaded a forum I was on declaring that an atheist group that funded a study by an atheist chemist declaring that the shroud was replicated , that it was a fake. They came in like a hurricane and when the replica was allowed to be studied a few months later it was thoroughly debunked by scientists and that group of atbeists suddenly went silent and we never heard of them again. :mrgreen:

But it left me with an itch I had to scratch . I wondered what the heck was this shroud of turin relic that caused these atheists so much excitement over replicating so I started studying it , and just like alive in wonderland , the deeper you go into the rabbit hole the more wonders you would find.

It's an amazing relic isn't it :)

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1110

Post by Storyteller » Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:58 am

Alice in Wonderland is a perfect description :)

It`s an unbelievably amazing relic indeed.

(Gotta shoot now, should be back later, will try and read some more tonight)
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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