Shroud of Turin

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
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bippy123
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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1081

Post by bippy123 » Wed Jan 14, 2015 7:37 am

Danieltwotwenty wrote:
Actually questor we do have a Polaroid . It's the shroud if turin , or maybe someone forgot to tell u that this is actually a negative image on the shroud long before before photography was invented

:pound: Good catch Bippy, that's why you are our resident shroud guru.
Thanks Daniel hehe :mrgreen:
This reminds me of what Barrie Schwortz said in one if his shroud presentations in that when it came to the anti shroud crowd ,some Christians are even more against the shroud then atheists . Ive seen this myself and you've seen this now with questor . It is true that the shroud elicits so much emotion with some folks that it causes them to abandon how they normally research things and throw out critical thinking right out the door .

Normally a Christian would look at for example , the recent evidence closely linking the shroud and sudarium to Golgotha and say ""hmm very fascinating indeed "" as Paul said . In other words this is evidence that "makes you go hmm"" as arsenio hall used to say .

The shroud an sudarium both linked by Golgotha ,both cloths being saved , an image that matches the gospel records of the passion and crucifixion , an image that can't be replicated by science and the only thing coming close are methods that deal with radiation , methods so advanced that no forger could have realistically have done it . Who else could this be ?

But questor just routinely dismisses this all with the wave of the hand , abandons critical thinking and claims "come on guys , you know there is no evidence for this being the burial shroud of Christ "

Questor knows this isn't rational , and that is why I will keep asking him what is his emotional problem with the shroud . This is when we will get down to the real reasons of why he doesn't want it to be authentic .

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1082

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Jan 14, 2015 7:53 am

In regards to IF the person on the Shroud is Jesus or not:

If it is NOT Jesus, then WHO is it?

Who or what could have caused such and image to appear in such a way and under what circumstances?

The thing is, there is more evidence leading to Jesus being that person, then there is for it NOT being Jesus.

Occam's razor.

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1083

Post by bippy123 » Wed Jan 14, 2015 9:31 am

PaulSacramento wrote:In regards to IF the person on the Shroud is Jesus or not:

If it is NOT Jesus, then WHO is it?

Who or what could have caused such and image to appear in such a way and under what circumstances?

The thing is, there is more evidence leading to Jesus being that person, then there is for it NOT being Jesus.

Occam's razor.
Correct Paul, perfectly stated and to quote Sir Arthur Conan Doyle of Sherlock Holmes fame

""Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.""

It's called deductive reasoning . Questor if you truly don't have any emotional baggage as far as the shroud is concerned please use this form of reasoning and let us know how strong the evidence for authenticity is for the shroud .

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1084

Post by 1over137 » Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:11 pm

I am informing all that Questor has been limited to 3 posts per 24 hours.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1085

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:29 pm

1over137 wrote:I am informing all that Questor has been limited to 3 posts per 24 hours.
Pull over!! Pull over!! It's Hana the Post Police :pound:

Just Kidding, doing a great job as mod's. y>:D<
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1086

Post by Creation » Wed Jan 14, 2015 7:03 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:In regards to IF the person on the Shroud is Jesus or not:

If it is NOT Jesus, then WHO is it?

Who or what could have caused such and image to appear in such a way and under what circumstances?

The thing is, there is more evidence leading to Jesus being that person, then there is for it NOT being Jesus.

Occam's razor.
Why do you assume, that the image is that of Jesus? Note this is a different question, than, is the shroud real, which is a pretty dumb question, because it is clearly a cloth with an image. However no one knows who's image it is, which is why the Catholic Church will not say that the image is that of Christ.

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1087

Post by bippy123 » Wed Jan 14, 2015 7:46 pm

Danieltwotwenty wrote:
1over137 wrote:I am informing all that Questor has been limited to 3 posts per 24 hours.
Pull over!! Pull over!! It's Hana the Post Police :pound:

Just Kidding, doing a great job as mod's. y>:D<
Hehe daniel. I sure am glad that there aren't more female cops out there or I would be getting arrested a lot more ... On purpose (I'm kidding,... I think ?)
:mrgreen:

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1088

Post by Silvertusk » Thu Jan 15, 2015 2:28 am

Creation wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:In regards to IF the person on the Shroud is Jesus or not:

If it is NOT Jesus, then WHO is it?

Who or what could have caused such and image to appear in such a way and under what circumstances?

The thing is, there is more evidence leading to Jesus being that person, then there is for it NOT being Jesus.

Occam's razor.
Why do you assume, that the image is that of Jesus? Note this is a different question, than, is the shroud real, which is a pretty dumb question, because it is clearly a cloth with an image. However no one knows who's image it is, which is why the Catholic Church will not say that the image is that of Christ.

I think the fact that the image on the shroud bears all the wounds as specified in the Gospels lead us to believe that it is the image of Jesus.

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1089

Post by Creation » Thu Jan 15, 2015 4:22 am

Silvertusk wrote:
Creation wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:In regards to IF the person on the Shroud is Jesus or not:

If it is NOT Jesus, then WHO is it?

Who or what could have caused such and image to appear in such a way and under what circumstances?

The thing is, there is more evidence leading to Jesus being that person, then there is for it NOT being Jesus.

Occam's razor.
Why do you assume, that the image is that of Jesus? Note this is a different question, than, is the shroud real, which is a pretty dumb question, because it is clearly a cloth with an image. However no one knows who's image it is, which is why the Catholic Church will not say that the image is that of Christ.

I think the fact that the image on the shroud bears all the wounds as specified in the Gospels lead us to believe that it is the image of Jesus.
You think a lot of things though, so do I, does that make what we think real? The FACT, is that the reason you say that you think, is because, you do not know, and neither does anyone else.

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1090

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Jan 15, 2015 6:46 am

Creation wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:In regards to IF the person on the Shroud is Jesus or not:

If it is NOT Jesus, then WHO is it?

Who or what could have caused such and image to appear in such a way and under what circumstances?

The thing is, there is more evidence leading to Jesus being that person, then there is for it NOT being Jesus.

Occam's razor.
Why do you assume, that the image is that of Jesus? Note this is a different question, than, is the shroud real, which is a pretty dumb question, because it is clearly a cloth with an image. However no one knows who's image it is, which is why the Catholic Church will not say that the image is that of Christ.
It just spelled out above (partially) why I think it is Jesus.
Add to that the physical evidence which is consistent with the beatings and crucifixtion described in the gospels and the real question becomes:
If NOT Jesus, WHO ?

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1091

Post by Silvertusk » Thu Jan 15, 2015 6:55 am

Creation wrote:
Silvertusk wrote:
Creation wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:In regards to IF the person on the Shroud is Jesus or not:

If it is NOT Jesus, then WHO is it?

Who or what could have caused such and image to appear in such a way and under what circumstances?

The thing is, there is more evidence leading to Jesus being that person, then there is for it NOT being Jesus.

Occam's razor.
Why do you assume, that the image is that of Jesus? Note this is a different question, than, is the shroud real, which is a pretty dumb question, because it is clearly a cloth with an image. However no one knows who's image it is, which is why the Catholic Church will not say that the image is that of Christ.

I think the fact that the image on the shroud bears all the wounds as specified in the Gospels lead us to believe that it is the image of Jesus.
You think a lot of things though, so do I, does that make what we think real? The FACT, is that the reason you say that you think, is because, you do not know, and neither does anyone else.
You literally did not make any sense there. You make judgments based on the evidence - and I am convince by the evidence that the shroud is the image of Jesus. Do I know for 100% - of course not - no one knows that about anything - but if that is the method you use to make decisions - then good luck, cos you will need it.

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1092

Post by bippy123 » Thu Jan 15, 2015 11:26 am

Silvertusk wrote:
Creation wrote:
Silvertusk wrote:
Creation wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:In regards to IF the person on the Shroud is Jesus or not:

If it is NOT Jesus, then WHO is it?

Who or what could have caused such and image to appear in such a way and under what circumstances?

The thing is, there is more evidence leading to Jesus being that person, then there is for it NOT being Jesus.

Occam's razor.
Why do you assume, that the image is that of Jesus? Note this is a different question, than, is the shroud real, which is a pretty dumb question, because it is clearly a cloth with an image. However no one knows who's image it is, which is why the Catholic Church will not say that the image is that of Christ.

I think the fact that the image on the shroud bears all the wounds as specified in the Gospels lead us to believe that it is the image of Jesus.
You think a lot of things though, so do I, does that make what we think real? The FACT, is that the reason you say that you think, is because, you do not know, and neither does anyone else.
You literally did not make any sense there. You make judgments based on the evidence - and I am convince by the evidence that the shroud is the image of Jesus. Do I know for 100% - of course not - no one knows that about anything - but if that is the method you use to make decisions - then good luck, cos you will need it.
Silvertusk and Paul , this is exactly how we should look at the shroud when we research it. This is all aboit deductive reasoning . Think Sherlock Holmes . In a court of law I think the evidence that is here so far points powerfully to it being the real deal . There just is too many compelling evidences to ignore , but if a person wants to ignore it , they can. Is it reasonable to ignore ? I and many others don't think its reasonable to ignore the totality of the evidences .

Mark Antonacci doesn't think so either and he was out on a mission to debunk Christianity to his Christian girlfriend

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1093

Post by bippy123 » Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:33 am

Ok guys here is an excellent list of video presentations made from the St. Louis shroud conference.
Got into a heated debate on the uncommon descent forum with an atheist named Diogenes who made the mistake of bringing up the shroud on their blog and using outright still and old arguments against it. I guess you know what happened next ;)

Suffice to say he stopped posting on the shroud lol.

Anyways the list of videos I promised a few of my buddies there is in moderation for some reason so I'm posting it here for them. They will have a chance to view them here .

These are videos from the most recent shroud conference in October 2014

This is a video from Los alamos labs chemist Robert Villarreal
http://youtu.be/5MXdxTVC7O0

Video of my favorite shroud researcher Barrie Schwortz who is an Orthodox Jew who believes in the authenticity of the . Barrie was the documenting photographer of Sturp.

http://youtu.be/wsGm5T6LOW8


This video is of doctor Petrus Soons who was the first to create a life size hologram of the shroud and doing the presentation of his work is the inventor of the vo8 image analyzer (which NASA uses to map out then erratic of mars and the moon in 3d) talks about the halo around the head of the man of the shroud and it's connection to the mandylion. Fascinating presentation and info that I didn't even know about .

http://youtu.be/2Ypw61sr2ag

Another awesome video from engineer Jeffrey skurka on the neutron flux theory in agreement with mark Antonacci and his team of scientists . BA and silver you guys will love this one .

http://youtu.be/nXX-HA4CFYY

Dana fullbright debunking the theory that a massive 9.0 earthquake caused the caused neutron flux to create that image in the shroud . Very good presentation
http://youtu.be/Lac80MMs7hA






Historian daniel scavone on documents in Constantinople showing the shroud was in edessa

http://youtu.be/gn80uTv6irU

Bishop michael Sheridan talks about how the shroud could be used as support for our faith, not a substitute for our faith.
http://youtu.be/UgGZCzESOeU

Presentation by dame Isabelle piczek world renowned artist and particle physicist specializing in the field of time.

The published date says August 2014 so I don't think this is from the St. Louis conference as that is in October . Lots of goodies here guys :)

http://youtu.be/_u4gPl9A2Lw



Physicist art Lind talking about the blood stains and the unique explanation for them. Lind is one if the scientists on mark Antonacci's team.



Emmanuella marinelli - shroud and iconography
http://youtu.be/_cp5epABtOE



Robery Rucker mcnp analysis of neutrons released by Jesus's body during hs resurrection . I haven't seen this or most if these videos yet as I've ben very busy but my guess is that this ties in direct with Antonacci and his teams neutron flux their that would prove the resurrection if neutrons were found on the shroud . It's an hour video so it's a bit long compared to the others .
http://youtu.be/5Cjyvd2hMhg



From the mandylion to the shroud by Ivan polvarari
http://youtu.be/xcp4RnV5p6w


Scientist Bruno barberis -the current state of science
http://youtu.be/vQAWolRKaXo

Another of my favorites , shroud expert Russ breault
http://youtu.be/yTt8VKow6b4

Capes at barta talks about new studies that show the soul on the sudarium of Oviedo match very closely to soil found in Golgotha . Very exciting presentation.
This video I have seen.
http://youtu.be/Pny7WGyq8ZU

Professor Giulio Fanti 12 years of shroud research read by shroud expert Joseph Marino .
http://youtu.be/E56zyNufEU0


Pam moon- further evaluation of the 1988 c14 samples
http://youtu.be/RkJdgb-Ok5c

Tony Fleming - biophotonic theory that biophotonic IV light was emitted by the body of Christ to cause that image

http://youtu.be/X4bejqAVfOk



To end this post here is the newest shroud video documentary on professor Giulio Fanti and his corona discharge theory in which he actually does produce an image by corona discharge by I putting massive amounts of electrical energy to cause an image very much like the shroud image .
I wonder what event could have caused this kind if massive energy to happen in first century Jerusalem .

http://youtu.be/I4c4812XA9A

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1094

Post by Philip » Sat Feb 21, 2015 5:59 am

Bip, God has wired you wonderfully fanatic in wanting to know the facts and get to the truth! :clap:

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1095

Post by bippy123 » Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:34 pm

Philip wrote:Bip, God has wired you wonderfully fanatic in wanting to know the facts and get to the truth! :clap:
Hehe yea Philip. I wonder if The Lord ever shakes his head and starts laughing when I'm going through these debates thinking "maybe I added to much fanatic into this equation " lol
I'm just glad that he loves us all. What an awesome God we have ,but for me even more awesome then these things is the quality that draws me to him most and that is his perfect and wonderful love for us all :)

I see him within you Philip and inside many others here .
It's that love that makes me want to get to know him more and more each day.
The shroud isn't the foundation of our faith, Christ's love and word is :)
I'm just glad he's on our side :mrgreen:

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