Shroud of Turin

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
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TheQuestor
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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1051

Post by TheQuestor » Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:00 pm

Philip wrote:
Philip wrote:
If it is real, why doesn't the Catholic Church, who owns it, claim that it is genuine?


Why do you think the Catholic Church would definitively know any more than any other modern entity? It had no control over The Shroud until 1983.


All I stated was the truth, which is that the Catholic Church, does not claim that the shroud is what some claim it to be.
And that matters because...
Well, you do not need care what the Catholic church says, I choose too, but surely the Vatican has examined the shroud, and will not make the claim, that it is real. This matters, and has happened for a reason. Surely the Church would like it to be real, I can't imagine the Vatican not wanting this, so why will they not endorse it? Perhaps they have seen the Hanes label....

Who knows

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1052

Post by bippy123 » Tue Dec 30, 2014 12:25 am

Quest ,actually the church's official position is neutral not be uses it doesn't believe in its authenticity but because it says that it's not needed as an article of a. Christians faith.

If u had gone through the statements of the last 3 popes before pope francis , they privately believed in its authenticity.

The evidence leans heavily on the side of authenticity . Can it be priven 100% ?
Of course not be uses we don't have the DNA of Jesus and how on earth do we test for a resurrection .

U gotta research the shroud in the same way Sherlock Holmes investigates a murder mystery

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1053

Post by Philip » Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:57 am

U gotta research the shroud in the same way Sherlock Holmes investigates a murder mystery
Bip means that you first try to eliminate all other possible explanations, and then somewhere in what remains inexplicable must be the truth.

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1054

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Dec 30, 2014 6:15 am

Whether the RCC or any other organized religion ever makes a definite statement on the shroud is irrelevant to me, as it should be to any christian since our SOLE authority on ANYTHING is Christ and not man.
To me, one of the defining moments when I realized the validity of the shroud was when I did a scientific view of it, base don ALL the evidence we have.
And by that I simply means this:
Is the shroud "repeatable"? in other words: Can it be made today?
That NO ONE has been able to duplicate all the qualities of the shroud TODAY speaks volumes to me.
That the closest we have come has been with radiation, SCREAMS volumes to me.

I believe that the image on the shroud is Jesus if for no other reason then this:
If not HIM, who? and if NOT by God, by whom?

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1055

Post by Kurieuo » Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:42 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:Whether the RCC or any other organized religion ever makes a definite statement on the shroud is irrelevant to me, as it should be to any christian since our SOLE authority on ANYTHING is Christ and not man.
To me, one of the defining moments when I realized the validity of the shroud was when I did a scientific view of it, base don ALL the evidence we have.
And by that I simply means this:
Is the shroud "repeatable"? in other words: Can it be made today?
That NO ONE has been able to duplicate all the qualities of the shroud TODAY speaks volumes to me.
That the closest we have come has been with radiation, SCREAMS volumes to me.

I believe that the image on the shroud is Jesus if for no other reason then this:
If not HIM, who? and if NOT by God, by whom?
Questor's logic is unsound anyway, even if it mattered what the RCC thought.

The stupidity (sorry, but I can' t be bothered mixing my words) can be seen as follows.
The Catholic Church also does not wholeheartedly endorse it as being someone else other than Jesus.
Therefore, the only conclusion we can draw is that the shroud must not have belonged to any person.
Obviously that doesn't make any sense.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1056

Post by bippy123 » Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:40 am

Philip wrote:
U gotta research the shroud in the same way Sherlock Holmes investigates a murder mystery
Bip means that you first try to eliminate all other possible explanations, and then somewhere in what remains inexplicable must be the truth.

Exactly Philip and the deeper you go the more amazing it becomes and the harder it is to believe that this image came about from any forger of anytime

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1057

Post by bippy123 » Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:06 am

PaulSacramento wrote:Whether the RCC or any other organized religion ever makes a definite statement on the shroud is irrelevant to me, as it should be to any christian since our SOLE authority on ANYTHING is Christ and not man.
To me, one of the defining moments when I realized the validity of the shroud was when I did a scientific view of it, base don ALL the evidence we have.
And by that I simply means this:
Is the shroud "repeatable"? in other words: Can it be made today?
That NO ONE has been able to duplicate all the qualities of the shroud TODAY speaks volumes to me.
That the closest we have come has been with radiation, SCREAMS volumes to me.

I believe that the image on the shroud is Jesus if for no other reason then this:
If not HIM, who? and if NOT by God, by whom?
http://www.staycatholic.com/shroud_of_turin.htm

This should also scream volumes to anyone also sitting on the fence . All naturalistic explanations came up dry .
It can't even be replicated today , how the heck could someone have replicated it back then ? Paul the circumstantial evidence points to the only historical event that makes the most sense out if all this and that's the resurrection . Where does an ancient forger get the technology to create an image that is so advanced that we can't today replicate it ? And why would he go to such great lengths to do so to fool a medieval audience ? What does he also gain by spreading pollen from Israel on the shroud that can't even be detected by anyone until the 20th century ? Nothing else but that one special event makes sense of all this .

It also screamed volumes on the man who came closest to replicating it with radiation doctor August Accetta who was an agnostic before his experiments and came back to Christianity after.
He knew that even though he came close that he still couldn't replicate the amazing detail of this image
For his part, Accetta grew up Catholic but left the Church as an agnostic in his youth, convinced that belief in God was "pretty much just a way to deal with mortality." In spite of his skepticism, he was intrigued by a radio talk on the Shroud in 1992 by Dr. Alan Whanger, professor emeritus at Duke University and chief researcher for the Council for Study of the Shroud of Turin (duke.edu/~adw2/shroud). He met with Whanger and began to collect information, enthralled by the "clarity" of the materials available. Nevertheless, it was not the Shroud itself but his study of it that made Accetta a believer, he stressed. To know more about the Shroud, he had to study Scripture and Tradition.
Somewhere in 1997," he said, "I realized my data had changed and that I was now a believer."

What got him to start reading scripture again to give Christianity a chance as opposed to his conversion to the agnosticism of his youth ?

Accetta is particularly interested in the image’s photographic aspects, including its three-dimensional qualities and its human anatomical features. He has published four peer-reviewed papers on the Shroud in the area of nuclear imaging. The doctor’s work with nuclear imaging demonstrates that in terms of the Shroud’s inverse color intensity (often described as being like a photographic negative, but actually a mere reversal of light and dark), the image encodes only about the top 1.5 inches of the face and body in three dimensions. "It’s like a relief sculpture," he said, "sort of like when Han Solo was frozen in carbon in" Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back.

Of equal interest to Accetta is the X-ray-like imaging upon the Shroud; the image reveals the roots of several upper teeth, the metacarpal bones in the left wrist and the femur under the left hand. Furthermore, the image reveals bruising on the cheek just below the left eye. Bruising, according to Accetta, is completely part of the body image, not at all like the bleeding wounds that left blood residue on the surface of the Shroud.

Accetta has shown by injecting nuclear isotopes into his own bloodstream that he can produce a similar image, complete with 3-D information, in photos taken by the gamma camera doctors use to make images of internal organs. "The amount of radiation in the skin and bones," Accetta said, "correlates to the number of pixels on the Shroud."
The guy injected nuclear isotopes into his blood stream !!!
Now this is a truth seeker with guts
Most of the greatest research in the shroud has come from the agnostics and while many like mark Antonacci , August Acceta and Ian Wilson converted , some like Ray Rogers didn't convert .

Thomas de Wesselow , an agnostic Cambridge trained art historian believes that the historical evidence is good enoigh to make him now a believer in the shroud's authenticity but because of his agnosticism he stuck to favoring a natural,explanation for the shroud's image and that is similar to ray Rogers mallard reaction which no one has been able to use to replicate the shroud with lol.

Also Wessellow, because of his problem in believing in miracles put out a wacky theory that Christianity grew not because they saw the risen Christ but because they saw the shroud and out if it the legend grew lol.

This doesn't fit at all with what a first century Jew would believe but Wesselow had to come up with an explanation , and anything no matter how far out there or weird is preferable to a resurrection ;)
Last edited by bippy123 on Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1058

Post by bippy123 » Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:08 am

Gary habermas who is not a catholic but an evangelical Christian takes it even further in the same article .
Shroud investigators stress that while relics like the Shroud are not central to belief in the divinity and salvific mission of Christ, they can serve as powerful aids to developing a working faith. "It’s silly to suggest that evidence like the Shroud should play no role in under girding our faith," said Gary Habermas, chairman of the department of philosophy and theology at Liberty University in Lynchburg, Va., and co-author of two books on the Shroud. "Jesus himself said if people could not simply believe what he said, then ‘at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves’" (John 14:11).

As an evangelical Christian, Habermas is careful to separate his own appreciation for the Shroud — "There’s a good chance it is authentic," he says — from his worship of the living Christ. Still, for him the Shroud is nothing less than a pictorial Gospel. "It’s all there: deity, death and resurrection," he said. "The Shroud shows that he’s dead, but that there’s something happening to bring him to life." He also suggested the evidence of Jesus’ awful suffering imprinted on the Shroud should cause every Christian to re-examine his commitment to the faith. "A university student once said to me that it removes the flippant approach," he recalled. "You know how some people talk, ‘Yeah, Christ died for my sins. Hey, you wanna get a burger?’"
Hey you wanna get a burger :pound:
I like that one lol

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1059

Post by bippy123 » Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:23 am

PaulSacramento wrote:Whether the RCC or any other organized religion ever makes a definite statement on the shroud is irrelevant to me, as it should be to any christian since our SOLE authority on ANYTHING is Christ and not man.
To me, one of the defining moments when I realized the validity of the shroud was when I did a scientific view of it, base don ALL the evidence we have.
And by that I simply means this:
Is the shroud "repeatable"? in other words: Can it be made today?
That NO ONE has been able to duplicate all the qualities of the shroud TODAY speaks volumes to me.
That the closest we have come has been with radiation, SCREAMS volumes to me.

I believe that the image on the shroud is Jesus if for no other reason then this:
If not HIM, who? and if NOT by God, by whom?
Speaking of radiation Paul here is a new video that focuses on professor Giulio Fanti , his 3 tests that date the shroud to around the time of Christ and his corona discharge theory . I think you guys will find this video fascinating , and that's an understatement
Enjoy
http://youtu.be/I4c4812XA9A

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1060

Post by bippy123 » Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:08 am

New fascinating discovery on the sudarium of Oviedo . I believe this is was from the recent shroud conference by a physicist Cesar barta that shows calcium deposits analyzed from the sudarium matches with the rock of Calvary or as it is known in Aramaic Golgotha


http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/stlbartapaper.pdf

Abstract— The Sudarium of Oviedo and the Shroud of Turin are two relics attributed to Jesus Christ that show a series of amazing coincidences announced in the past. They lead to confirm the use of both cloths on the same person. In this contribution, we describe the X-ray fluorescence analysis carried out on the Sudarium. Among the chemical elements detected, the most reliable was calcium.

Being associated to soil dust, it shows a statistically significant higher presence in the areas with bloody stains. This fact allows correlating its distribution with the anatomical features of the corpse. A large excess of calcium is observed close to the tip of the nose. It is atypical to find soil dirt in this zone of the anatomy, but it is just the same zone where a particular presence of dust was found in the Shroud. The very low concentration of strontium traces in the stained areas matches also well with the type of limestone characteristic of the rock of Calvary in Jerusalem.

This new finding adds to others recently released; i.e. the ponytail shape of the Man of the Shroud hair is justified by the use of the Sudarium of Oviedo and we identify a stain in this cloth that can be a scourge mark. Such a gathering of evidences strengthens the tradition that both cloths have wrapped the body of Jesus of Nazareth
.
Its a 9'page abstract which will probably take my time to study as time permits but it's just more evidence not only linking the sudarium to the biblical crucifixion site of Christ but also shows that it's ridiculous to think a forger would go through all this trouble or even have this knowledge to add dirt that matches from the area of Golgotha .

Fascinating find

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1061

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Jan 12, 2015 9:07 am

Very interesting indeed.

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1062

Post by bippy123 » Mon Jan 12, 2015 1:40 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:Very interesting indeed.
Yea Paul , it's just further evidence that just blows the forger theory out the window and if indeed the calcium at the tip of the nose area in both relics match with Golgotha ,what other conclusion can we come up with other then they both indeed wrapped around the body of Jesus.
Where there is smoke there definitely is fire , or maybe radiation in this case :mrgreen:

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1063

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Jan 12, 2015 1:42 pm

bippy123 wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Very interesting indeed.
Yea Paul , it's just further evidence that just blows the forger theory out the window and if indeed the calcium at the tip of the nose area in both relics match with Golgotha ,what other conclusion can we come up with other then they both indeed wrapped around the body of Jesus.
Where there is smoke there definitely is fire , or maybe radiation in this case :mrgreen:
Lets be correct here and remember that CONSISTENT with does not mean MATCHES.
The fact that BOTH have them is truly something.

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1064

Post by bippy123 » Mon Jan 12, 2015 1:46 pm

Hey Paul and everyone here , just found the video presentation from Cesar barta on the new finds on the sudarium of oveido . For me the video and audio quality don't seem up to par, or maybe it's my tablet .

Let me know if you guys can hear it good also

http://youtu.be/Pny7WGyq8ZU

The first part of the video , the mic was very low audio but thankfully someone got up there and fixed it.
They found a higher concentration if dust particles near the tip of the nose on both the sudarium and the shroud , a higher concentration the in other parts , which is a consistent with a fall and the dust corresponds very closely to the rock of Calvary .

It's almost like a CSI team is starting to reconstruct the crucifixion part by part .

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Re: Shroud of Turin

#1065

Post by TheQuestor » Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:38 pm

bippy123 wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Very interesting indeed.
Yea Paul , it's just further evidence that just blows the forger theory out the window and if indeed the calcium at the tip of the nose area in both relics match with Golgotha ,what other conclusion can we come up with other then they both indeed wrapped around the body of Jesus.
Where there is smoke there definitely is fire , or maybe radiation in this case :mrgreen:
There is no evidence that this piece of cloth ever touched Christ.............. However, you are free to believe, just as some believe that the Earth is 5,000 years old.

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