Shroud of Turin

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
Locked
User avatar
Jac3510
Ultimate Member
Posts: 5489
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:53 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Fort Smith, AR
Has liked: 137 times
Been liked: 336 times
Contact:

Re: Shroud of Turin

#1036

Post by Jac3510 » Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:06 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Audie wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
bippy123 wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:As someone that thought the Shroud was a fake also AND as someone that does NOT view it even remotely necessary for MY faith, I can say this:
IMO, all the arguments FOR the shroud being a fake have been refuted to one extent or another.
NO ONE from the skeptic camp has been able to replicate all the conditions of the shroud image.
I do NOT know if the image is of Jesus, my faith tells me yes but there is no proof of that ( though the evidence leans towards that being the case).
What is fascinating REGARDLESS of theology and religion is HOW this happened and WHY it hasn't been duplicated.
This is the best way to approach the shroud Paul. My faith is in Jesus and the testimony if the apostles .

And yes it probably will never be proven 100% , but most of the evidence points towards authenticity .

No scientist alive has been able to duplicate it which is amazing in and of itself , and other things such as the pristine blood clots tell us that something unnatural happened to that shroud .

There are many things happening in the shroud that tell us that it's virtually impossible for it being the work of a forger .
And the short answer is yes--very reputable people working within their field of speciality.
I can say this with almost 100% certainty:
IF it could have been forged, someone would have reproduced it already.
No one has been able to and all the evidence for the image being there points to radiation.

Are you certain that the shroud has been properly and thoroughly analyzed by reputable persons? Reproducing something you dont know what it is is very tough.
I really thing you need to read this thread...that has been answered here already.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

TheQuestor
Established Member
Posts: 143
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2014 8:28 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Shroud of Turin

#1037

Post by TheQuestor » Thu Dec 25, 2014 5:59 pm

Are you certain that the shroud has been properly and thoroughly analyzed by reputable persons? Reproducing something you dont know what it is is very tough.
[/quote]

I really thing you need to read this thread...that has been answered here already.[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]

Ok, I am late to this thread, but I believe that the Vatican, does not even claim that the shroud, was used to cover Christ. Thus this idea, was invented sometime later. So if the Vatican is not convinced, why should any of you be convinced?

User avatar
1over137
Technical Admin
Posts: 5249
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 6:05 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Slovakia
Has liked: 138 times
Been liked: 298 times

Re: Shroud of Turin

#1038

Post by 1over137 » Thu Dec 25, 2014 11:16 pm

TheQuestor wrote:
Ok, I am late to this thread, but I believe that the Vatican, does not even claim that the shroud, was used to cover Christ. Thus this idea, was invented sometime later. So if the Vatican is not convinced, why should any of you be convinced?
You would not ask this, having read the thread before asking.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8365
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

Re: Shroud of Turin

#1039

Post by B. W. » Thu Dec 25, 2014 11:34 pm

TheQuestor wrote:Are you certain that the shroud has been properly and thoroughly analyzed by reputable persons? Reproducing something you dont know what it is is very tough.
I really thing you need to read this thread...that has been answered here already.
Ok, I am late to this thread, but I believe that the Vatican, does not even claim that the shroud, was used to cover Christ. Thus this idea, was invented sometime later. So if the Vatican is not convinced, why should any of you be convinced?
TheQuestor wrote:...I am a Christian, and was married by my fathers brother, who was a priest. I thus am from a very religious family. Are you aware that the Catholic Pope, would baptize an alien, and that he said so? And that the Catholic Pope, believes in evolution, he said that too? Just because you might disagree with something, does not make it less real.

To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible. Thomas Aquinas.
Interesting you stated that you are a Christian and then say below that you are stuck in the book of Genesis and thus admit that you know nothing of the gospel.
TheQuestor wrote:
B. W. wrote:
TheQuestor wrote:Interesting, I actually read that several times, looking to create an argument, however your wording is excellent, and does tend to give reason to why the gospel is, not so much what it says.

If everyone had such reason, creation would be taught, alongside of evolution, and education would be far more efficient.

Thank You...!
So Questor - how has the gospel affected you?
Right now, I am actually stuck in the old testament and the book of Genesis, and the line "and God created man in his image" as if this is true, then we could all be God, or we could become God at some point in our evolution, which seems to be random, and geared to survival in various environments, but might well all be part of a complicated type of advanced plan included in the code, that we call DNA. Jesus, may have been nothing more than a guide, pointing us in the right directions, which clearly included, the very creation of life, from death, and to cure the sick, and give sight to the blind. You can find people from all over the world doing this today, including atheist, who do the work of God. If God's DNA guides us, then we will surely be taking to the heavens at some point, to look for our Father.
You answered in a format that shows that you simply do not know the gospel message at all. Being married by your fathers brother, who was a priest and being from a very religious family doesn't make one a Christian. That is like reasoning that if you live in a garage, then you are a car.

Only thru Jesus Christ can one be His own. You have not done that and show no evidence of illumination of the Holy Spirit at all to indicated you were ever saved by the Lord as evidenced by all your write everywhere you wrote on this discussion forum. So to make it easy for you, here are the ingredients of the gospel message all summed up as the death, burial, resurrection, and appearances of the resurrected Christ all summarized in 1 Corinthians 15:1-8 NET Bible

15:1 Now I want to make clear for you, brothers and sisters, the gospel that I preached to you, that you received and on which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold firmly to the message I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 3 For I passed on to you as of first importance what I also received—that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, 15:4 and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day according to the scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve… 1 Corinthians 15:1-8 NET Bible

These verses give us the heart of the gospel. Since you are stuck in Genesis and on having an appearance of religion... tell us what these central gospel truths mean or if you cannot, then please ask and we will help explain these truths to you in greater details.

You demonstrate very clearly that you have no basic knowledge of the gospel or Christ at all. You cannot hide it. You have none. You cannot fake it... YOur own words testify against you in abundance.

It is your eternal destiny that is at stake, not those responding to you. You will be held to account for all you say and do and all your motives and for all the people you sought to put of trial, those who you betrayed, those you lied against, those you stole from, all harsh words ever spoken and all grandiose schemes used seek to destroy/entrap others, all your taking from others, and how often you temp and try to put God to the test. You will be held to account and found unfit for heaven as you would corrupt it. Only Jesus Christ can wipe your slate clean thru what he accomplished upon the cross and He seeks to resurrect you into new life. The cost is absolutely free, no gimmicks, just come as you are without one plea, ask for forgiveness to be born again by his Holy Spirit. He will do the rest in you. Recall that only God can forgive sins and Jesus is God manifest in human flesh came to set humanity free from darkness. So the question comes to you - do you desire to be free from your darkness? If not, its own you. God's wrath remains unaverted, plain and simple.

Do you really have any idea what it meant for Jesus to go to that cross and what he accomplished by it? Do you really want to know are just play silly games?

Questor, you are no expert on any subject which you posted on and none need to even take to the time to answer your chiding remarks that seek to make you out as the only arbiter of truth. In that, it shows, you have not the Holy Spirit within at all.

++++++

Now to others reading Quester's post...

WE discussed often that if evidence is necessary to at least demonstrate that one is a Christian so here you have your answer objectively answered. If one is truly a Christian, there will be at least enough evidence to convict a person that one is and if not... you decide.
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

TheQuestor
Established Member
Posts: 143
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2014 8:28 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Shroud of Turin

#1040

Post by TheQuestor » Fri Dec 26, 2014 5:44 am

1over137 wrote:
TheQuestor wrote:
Ok, I am late to this thread, but I believe that the Vatican, does not even claim that the shroud, was used to cover Christ. Thus this idea, was invented sometime later. So if the Vatican is not convinced, why should any of you be convinced?
You would not ask this, having read the thread before asking.
Well in all reality, reading 3100 plus threads, would be prohibitive, I can however easily Google the Vatican's/Popes stance on the Shroud.

Pope Francis dispatched a message for the new display in which he referred to the shroud as an “icon of a man scourged and crucified.”

The use of the term “icon” rather than “relic” amounts to the usual Vatican caution, given that the Holy See has never officially pronounced on the shroud’s authenticity, though since Pope Julius II in 1506 it has encouraged devotion to the crucified Christ aroused by the cloth.
http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/po ... roud-turin

bippy123
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1918
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:56 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 92 times
Been liked: 30 times

Re: Shroud of Turin

#1041

Post by bippy123 » Fri Dec 26, 2014 10:30 pm

TheQuestor wrote:
1over137 wrote:
TheQuestor wrote:
Ok, I am late to this thread, but I believe that the Vatican, does not even claim that the shroud, was used to cover Christ. Thus this idea, was invented sometime later. So if the Vatican is not convinced, why should any of you be convinced?
You would not ask this, having read the thread before asking.
Well in all reality, reading 3100 plus threads, would be prohibitive, I can however easily Google the Vatican's/Popes stance on the Shroud.

Pope Francis dispatched a message for the new display in which he referred to the shroud as an “icon of a man scourged and crucified.”

The use of the term “icon” rather than “relic” amounts to the usual Vatican caution, given that the Holy See has never officially pronounced on the shroud’s authenticity, though since Pope Julius II in 1506 it has encouraged devotion to the crucified Christ aroused by the cloth.
http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/po ... roud-turin
Publicly the Vatican is neutral on the shroud , and this is because they rightfully believe that the shroud isn't necessary for our faith, but the last 3 popes have privately believed in its authenticity.

bippy123
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1918
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:56 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 92 times
Been liked: 30 times

Re: Shroud of Turin

#1042

Post by bippy123 » Fri Dec 26, 2014 10:36 pm

Questor the pope can belive anything he wants privately , it doesn't mean we have to believe in it . I'm catholic and I don't believe in evolution anymore , I am now an advocate for intelligent design. There is no dogma that says we have to believe in evolution . The one thing that I find curious is that there are quite a few atheists on the Vatican academy of sinew including Stephen hawking , thankfully it's a on dogmatic , non binding academy . The Catholic apologist robert sungenis pointed this out . I find his theory of geocentrism very fascinating but haven't studied it enough to form an opinion yet.

TheQuestor
Established Member
Posts: 143
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2014 8:28 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Shroud of Turin

#1043

Post by TheQuestor » Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:26 am

bippy123 wrote:Questor the pope can belive anything he wants privately , it doesn't mean we have to believe in it . I'm catholic and I don't believe in evolution anymore , I am now an advocate for intelligent design. There is no dogma that says we have to believe in evolution . The one thing that I find curious is that there are quite a few atheists on the Vatican academy of sinew including Stephen hawking , thankfully it's a on dogmatic , non binding academy . The Catholic apologist robert sungenis pointed this out . I find his theory of geocentrism very fascinating but haven't studied it enough to form an opinion yet.
WHAT>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ok. Let me explain this to you, intelligent design, is the source of life, you believe this, so far we agree, I think. Now evolution, is one of the functions of DNA, as genes that mutate and cause evolution are found in DNA. Human DNA has three billion lines of code, that were written by an intelligent creator, including the code that enables evolution. This is what the Pope understands. What you do not believe in, is the theory that evolution can account for all life beginning in a pond.

The confusion comes from 7 billion meanings for the word evolution.

User avatar
1over137
Technical Admin
Posts: 5249
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 6:05 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Slovakia
Has liked: 138 times
Been liked: 298 times

Re: Shroud of Turin

#1044

Post by 1over137 » Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:27 am

To everyone: For further talk on pope or DNA or evolution, please start another thread.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

TheQuestor
Established Member
Posts: 143
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2014 8:28 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Shroud of Turin

#1045

Post by TheQuestor » Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:32 am

1over137 wrote:To everyone: For further talk on pope or DNA or evolution, please start another thread.
Oops................ So why didn't moths, eat the shroud long ago, like they ate my Italian suit pants?

User avatar
Philip
Board Moderator
Posts: 8638
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:45 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Betwixt the Sea and the Mountains
Has liked: 413 times
Been liked: 649 times

Re: Shroud of Turin

#1046

Post by Philip » Sat Dec 27, 2014 4:02 pm

Oops................ So why didn't moths, eat the shroud long ago, like they ate my Italian suit pants?
Er, because they didn't bury Jesus in Italian suit pants. :D AND, highly likely, for the very same reason that the Shroud even exists: Because God protected it! It survived over the centuries and arrived intact from it's journey to Europe from Israel. It has survived two fires. I believe that God foreknew that what originally looked just like a stained old cloth would, 1,900 years later, be photographed and subsequently brought under rigorous scientific scrutiny and analysis in the modern era - to become a powerful evidence for the Resurrection. You see, while no one can PROVE the Bible's words, the enormous credibility its words have been given from prophecy, historical sources, science, archaeology, etc - these all add up into an enormous treasure trove of evidences that support its contents. And while any one evidence might be easily dismissed, the enormity of the COLLECTIVE evidences are a powerful testimony to its truth and Source. And the Shroud appears to be an extremely important evidence of Christ's Resurrection.

TheQuestor
Established Member
Posts: 143
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2014 8:28 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Shroud of Turin

#1047

Post by TheQuestor » Sat Dec 27, 2014 4:15 pm

Philip wrote:
Oops................ So why didn't moths, eat the shroud long ago, like they ate my Italian suit pants?
Er, because they didn't bury Jesus in Italian suit pants. :D AND, highly likely, for the very same reason that the Shroud even exists: Because God protected it! It survived over the centuries and arrived intact from it's journey to Europe from Israel. It has survived two fires. I believe that God foreknew that what originally looked just like a stained old cloth would, 1,900 years later, be photographed and subsequently brought under rigorous scientific scrutiny and analysis in the modern era - to become a powerful evidence for the Resurrection. You see, while no one can PROVE the Bible's words, the enormous credibility its words have been given from prophecy, historical sources, science, archaeology, etc - these all add up into an enormous treasure trove of evidences that support its contents. And while any one evidence might be easily dismissed, the enormity of the COLLECTIVE evidences are a powerful testimony to its truth and Source. And the Shroud appears to be an extremely important evidence of Christ's Resurrection.
If it is real, why doesn't the Catholic Church, who owns it, claim that it is genuine?

User avatar
Philip
Board Moderator
Posts: 8638
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:45 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Betwixt the Sea and the Mountains
Has liked: 413 times
Been liked: 649 times

Re: Shroud of Turin

#1048

Post by Philip » Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:01 pm

If it is real, why doesn't the Catholic Church, who owns it, claim that it is genuine?
Why do you think the Catholic Church would definitively know any more than any other modern entity? It had no control over The Shroud until 1983.

TheQuestor
Established Member
Posts: 143
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2014 8:28 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Shroud of Turin

#1049

Post by TheQuestor » Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:08 pm

Philip wrote:
If it is real, why doesn't the Catholic Church, who owns it, claim that it is genuine?
Why do you think the Catholic Church would definitively know any more than any other modern entity? It had no control over The Shroud until 1983.
All I stated was the truth, which is that the Catholic Church, does not claim that the shroud is what some claim it to be.

User avatar
Philip
Board Moderator
Posts: 8638
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:45 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Betwixt the Sea and the Mountains
Has liked: 413 times
Been liked: 649 times

Re: Shroud of Turin

#1050

Post by Philip » Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:10 pm

Philip wrote:
If it is real, why doesn't the Catholic Church, who owns it, claim that it is genuine?


Why do you think the Catholic Church would definitively know any more than any other modern entity? It had no control over The Shroud until 1983.


All I stated was the truth, which is that the Catholic Church, does not claim that the shroud is what some claim it to be.
And that matters because...

Locked