A New ANTI-Evolution website!!!

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
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Re: Whale "hypothesis"

#31

Post by BGoodForGoodSake » Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:08 am

aa118816 wrote:Thanks for the post and you are correct that he seems to have changed his position,
He did not change his position, you misrepresented his position.
aa118816 wrote:but in no way has he solved the suppossed puzzle and his source material is sparse. If you think you can recreate a complete phylogeny based on 150 bones, you are on drugs. His conclusions are based upon his commitment to methodological naturalism. If you read through the whole article carefully, you will only see speculation. I also wonder if he got an earful from his colleauges after his statement in 2001. A good example of this is Peter Ward completely changing his position after being hammered by his colleauges for many of his conclusions in Rare Earth and then Priviledged Planet.

Dan
Is it your position that whales did not evolve from terrestrial mammals?
Your case seems to be that we don't have all the answers so therefore it did not occur. Am I correct?
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Re: Whale "hypothesis"

#32

Post by sandy_mcd » Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:54 am

aa118816 wrote:I also wonder if he got an earful from his colleauges after his statement in 2001.
Perhaps you are correct and he got an earful. But if life gives you lemons, you make lemonade.
Sirpa Nummela, J. G. M. Thewissen, Sunil Bajpai, S. Taseer Hussain and Kishor Kumar wrote:Nature 430, 776-778 (12 August 2004) | doi: 10.1038/nature02720
Eocene evolution of whale hearing

Sirpa Nummela, J. G. M. Thewissen, Sunil Bajpai, S. Taseer Hussain and Kishor Kumar

Abstract

The origin of whales (order Cetacea) is one of the best-documented examples of macroevolutionary change in vertebrates1, 2, 3. As the earliest whales became obligately marine, all of their organ systems adapted to the new environment. The fossil record indicates that this evolutionary transition took less than 15 million years, and that different organ systems followed different evolutionary trajectories. Here we document the evolutionary changes that took place in the sound transmission mechanism of the outer and middle ear in early whales. Sound transmission mechanisms change early on in whale evolution and pass through a stage (in pakicetids) in which hearing in both air and water is unsophisticated. This intermediate stage is soon abandoned and is replaced (in remingtonocetids and protocetids) by a sound transmission mechanism similar to that in modern toothed whales. The mechanism of these fossil whales lacks sophistication, and still retains some of the key elements that land mammals use to hear airborne sound.
Sorry, that was a poor attempt at humor. But as BGood has pointed out, I not only did not say Thewissen had changed his position but I also gave another article to show that aa118816 has apparently misinterpreted Thewissen's findings.

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#33

Post by Mystical » Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:38 am

No, it is correct. Genes guide the encoding and development of proteins.
Evolution does not predict that specific sequences have specific functions.
Evolution doesn't predict anything.
It is the variation in sequence that actually bolsters the theory.
No, it doesn't. Variation in gene sequence doesn't say anything.
This variation in gene sequences was predicted by evolution.
Evolution doesn't predict anything. Anthropomorphizing?
The non-harmful ones (mutations which do not alter protein function)will remain...
Wrong, there are many protein-altering mutations which are not harmful and which remain.
If it was designed why would this protein which works just as well in yeast cells as in humans have different sequences for each organism. Yes, the question makes sence.
No, it doesn't make sense. Why not? Funny, "Evolution" isn't even close to any explanation. I predict that he won't be figuring it out any time soon! :D Sounds like God to me.
Here are the sequences:
Still don't mean a thing, my friend. Sorry. :?
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#34

Post by BGoodForGoodSake » Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:50 pm

Mystical wrote:No, it is correct. Genes guide the encoding and development of proteins.
Evolution does not predict that specific sequences have specific functions.
Evolution doesn't predict anything.
It is the variation in sequence that actually bolsters the theory.
No, it doesn't. Variation in gene sequence doesn't say anything.
If there is an apparant order to this variation it certainly does. Just as the word for love in french and spanish can be traced to its latin roots, the genes of your neighbor and yourself can be traced back to a common ancestor.
Mystical wrote:
This variation in gene sequences was predicted by evolution.
Evolution doesn't predict anything. Anthropomorphizing?
What do you mean?
Mystical wrote:
The non-harmful ones (mutations which do not alter protein function)will remain...
Wrong, there are many protein-altering mutations which are not harmful and which remain.
Did you just repeat me, or is this a typo?
Mystical wrote:
If it was designed why would this protein which works just as well in yeast cells as in humans have different sequences for each organism. Yes, the question makes sence.
No, it doesn't make sense. Why not? Funny, "Evolution" isn't even close to any explanation. I predict that he won't be figuring it out any time soon! :D Sounds like God to me.
I don't follow sorry.
Mystical wrote:
Here are the sequences:
Still don't mean a thing, my friend. Sorry. :?
Imagine the sequences like cooking instructions. Each letter represent a different step. You can see that the recipe for the cow and sheep is identicle. The whale is almost the same.

However the ones for the monkey, kangaroo, and bat are different.

And if you delve further into the differences a significant pattern emerges.
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#35

Post by numeral2_5 » Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:07 am

That site is laughable and ridiculous at best.
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#36

Post by AttentionKMartShoppers » Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:26 pm

If there is an apparant order to this variation it certainly does. Just as the word for love in french and spanish can be traced to its latin roots, the genes of your neighbor and yourself can be traced back to a common ancestor.
OLE! Now we have fun with molecular phylogeny.

http://www.arn.org/docs/wells/jw_critic ... ry1103.htm
Yet biologists have known for years that some bacteria, algae and single-celled animals do NOT have the same genetic code as most other organisms. Darwinists claim that the exceptions are unimportant, since they "know" that the aberrant organisms are descended from organisms that had the standard code. But the code itself was supposed to be the primary evidence for such descent, and no comparable evidence is offered to replace it. Clearly, the Darwinists' "knowledge" in this case is philosophical rather than empirical.

The non-universality of the genetic code is not a minor quibble, but part of a general pattern. In 1991, Phillip Johnson argued in Darwin On Trial that common ancestry the so-called "fact of evolution" is not an empirical hypothesis for Darwinists, but a logical consequence of their naturalistic philosophy. As such, it is immune to empirical disconfirmation. Even when evidence cited as primary support for the idea turns out to be false, the idea survives. We see this in molecular phylogeny (in which the contortions needed to protect the common ancestry of the major kingdoms make Ptolemaic epicycles look downright elegant), the fossil record (in which the absence of a common ancestor for the major animal phyla is still dismissed as an artifact of incomplete collection, even though 150 years of collecting have shown that the Cambrian explosion is real), and vertebrate embryology (in which dissimilarities in early embryos that do not support the doctrine of common ancestry are explained away, on the grounds that early development evolves more easily than we thought).

The truth is that MOST of the evidence cited in support of common ancestry at the levels of kingdoms, phyla and classes has had to be explained away to protect the idea of common ancestry. But if most of the evidence must be explained away, then it's clear that we're dealing with a philosophical doctrine rather than empirical science.

Of course, common ancestry may be true at lower levels of the biological hierarchy. For example, everyone would probably agree that all human beings are descended from common ancestors. And even many biblical creationists regard the ability of members of the cat family to hybridize as evidence that they share a common ancestor. In the absence of evidence, however, why should we accept as "fact" the idea that ALL organisms are descended from a common ancestor?
http://www.arn.org/docs/wells/cl_iconsstillstanding.htm
Save the trees!

Tamzek implies that Darwin's tree of life looks simple and "tree-like" apart from the 'molecular thicket' at the root, however this is not the case. It is well recognized in systematics that very often phylogenetic trees based upon one gene or protein sequence, will lead to one tree, while a tree based upon some other biomolecule look quite different. And even more often, trees based upon biomolecules are at odds with trees created on macromorphological characteristics or the fossil record (and trees based upon different macromorphologies often differ from one another a well). Tamzek claims that the Eukaryote tree is well resolved through Baldauf et al. (2000)99, however this paper escapes typical problems of conflicting trees because it creates one tree using a massive dataset of many protein sequences to statistically obscure the differences between the trees based upon individual proteins. By creating one "flimsy" tree through many genes, common ancestry cannot be strongly verified through independent converging lines of genetic evidence (admittedly, this is a good technique for creating a phylogeny if one already assumes common ancestry is true, however, as a test of common ancestry, it shows molecular evidence provides little support). In fact, it was found that single-gene phylogenies only "support subsets of the combined protein tree." In other words, the different genes, when taken independently, do not converge to make a nice neat tree.

Tamzek claims that the results of this article indicate that Eukaryote phylogeny is coming along "just fine", and that this paper provides a "perfectly traditional and tree-like" phylogeny of the Eukaryotes. As said before, the neatness of this tree is purely the result of statistical techniques and the combined dataset used in the paper. Regardless, Baldauf et al. actually found that their tree has "striking differences from SSU rRNA phylogeny"99, and noted that past studies have also encountered conflicting trees. When faced with differing trees, Darwinists usually manage to retain common ancestry by explaining these discrepancies through differing rates of evolution, differing selection pressures, lateral gene transfer, or even convergent or parallel evolution. However, nonetheless, nice neat Darwinian trees are often hard to come by, and predictions from common ancestry fail, leaving us with epicycle after epicycle. Resorting to lateral gene transfer might not be necessary99, but this paper shows that nice neat Darwinian trees are still elusive for the alleged ancestry of Eukaryotes.

Other organisms, whose alleged phylogenetic trees have run into the "thicket" problem, because nice neat Darwinian trees could not be produced by the observed character distributions, include (but are by no means limited to) relationships of major reptile groups62, amniote groups (particularly with the placement of birds)69, major placental mammal groups64, 72, whales (both as an order within class mammalia63, and its sub-groups 65, 66), songbirds74, bats (as an order within class mammalia and its sub-groups)64, 67, 69, rodents64, 68, 72, lagomorphs (rabbits)69, 72, artiodactyls sub-groups72, insectivores64, 72, chimps (their position within the order primates)69, sea urchins72, many major plant groups71, angiosperm sub-groups69, 71, marsupials (in relation to monotremes and placentals)72, osteichthyans (in their alleged relationship to tetrapods)69, some deuterostome phyla69, and many Eukaryote groups (e.g. fungi70, 99, plants99, and metazoa99). Schwabe and Warr73 found that proteins such as relaxin, insulins, adrenocorticotropic hormone, somatostatin, histocompatability antigens, neural glycoproteins and microglobulin are distributed in both animal and non-animal groups in ways which differ markedly from Darwin's alleged tree of life.

Early in the molecular revolution there was some hope that molecular phylogenies of mammalian orders would match those created by morphology64, 72, however as more data came in, the tree became less and less "Darwinian". In fact, in 1998, de Jong noted that:
"the wealth of competing morphological, as well as molecular proposals [of] the prevailing phylogenies of the mammalian orders would reduce [the mammalian tree] to an unresolved bush, the only consistent clade probably being the grouping of elephants and sea cows."72
Systematist Colin Patterson also did a review of congruence between trees generated by morphology and trees created by molecular data and found that "congruence between molecular phylogenies is as elusive as it is in morphology and as it is between molecules and morphology"69. His study concluded that after reviewing trees based off of molecular and morphological data, their hopes of verifying morphologically derived trees were "dampened."69 This does not square well with Tamzek's claim that "[molecular] phylogenies are reliable and in reasonably good accord with phylogenies generated from other data." In closing, this reoccurring "thicket" problem shows that the tree of life, if all life is even inter-related, is surely very different from its portrayal in textbooks.
http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/myht_of ... gy_05.html

cientists started analyzing a variety of genes from different organisms and found that their relationship to each other contradicted the evolutionary tree of life derived from rRNA analysis alone.302

No consistent organismal phylogeny has emerged from the many individual protein phylogenies so far produced. Phylogenetic incongruities can be seen everywhere in the universal tree, from its root to the major branchings within and among the various [groups] to the makeup of the primary groupings themselves.303

A year ago, biologists looking over newly sequenced genomes from more than a dozen microorganisms thought these data might support the accepted plot lines of life's early history. But what they saw confounded them. Comparisons of the genomes then available not only didn't clarify the picture of how life's major groupings evolved, they confused it. And now, with an additional eight microbial sequences in hand, the situation has gotten even more confusing.... Many evolutionary biologists had thought they could roughly see the beginnings of life's three kingdoms... When full DNA sequences opened the way to comparing other kinds of genes, researchers expected that they would simply add detail to this tree. But "nothing could be further from the truth," says Claire Fraser, head of The Institute for Genomic Research (TIGR) in Rockville, Maryland. Instead, the comparisons have yielded many versions of the tree of life that differ from the rRNA tree and conflict with each other as well...304


Inconsistencies among trees based on different molecules, and the bizarre trees that result from some molecular analyses, have now plunged molecular phylogeny into a crisis.305


BGood again:

Imagine the sequences like cooking instructions. Each letter represent a different step. You can see that the recipe for the cow and sheep is identicle. The whale is almost the same.

However the ones for the monkey, kangaroo, and bat are different.

And if you delve further into the differences a significant pattern emerges.


Doesn't this ignore "junk" DNA, among other things?

But, alas, as we know...BGood, a man went to college to be an engineer...will attempt to single handedly refute my three sources...


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#37

Post by BGoodForGoodSake » Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:23 pm

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote: OLE! Now we have fun with molecular phylogeny.

http://www.arn.org/docs/wells/jw_critic ... ry1103.htm

Yet biologists have known for years that some bacteria, algae and single-celled animals do NOT have the same genetic code as most other organisms.
Yes of course this is not in dispute. However one needs to examine what the exceptions are. In mitochondria and some microorganisms the genetic code is slightly different. Given that bacteria predates all other forms of life it can shown phylogenically that all eukaryotic life forms resulted from the one time mitochondria and a larger cell became symbiotic.a
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:Darwinists claim that the exceptions are unimportant, since they "know" that the aberrant organisms are descended from organisms that had the standard code.
Incorrect, the theory is that the two codes existed concurrently and that higher life forms arose from one of the groups.
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:But the code itself was supposed to be the primary evidence for such descent, and no comparable evidence is offered to replace it.
The code itself is not the evidence it is the comparative analysis of many species.
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:Clearly, the Darwinists' "knowledge" in this case is philosophical rather than empirical.
The analysis of the sequences is far from philosophical.
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:The non-universality of the genetic code is not a minor quibble, but part of a general pattern. In 1991, Phillip Johnson argued in Darwin On Trial that common ancestry­ the so-called "fact of evolution" is not an empirical hypothesis for Darwinists, but a logical consequence of their naturalistic philosophy.
What organisms have this variation in code? Have you done any research into that? For instance mitochondria which uses one code is present in all higher life and the mitochondria in all these lifeforms all use the same code. The somatic DNA also uses the same code in all higher lifeforms. What are the chances of this?
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:As such, it is immune to empirical disconfirmation. Even when evidence cited as primary support for the idea turns out to be false, the idea survives.
What evidence is this?
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:We see this in molecular phylogeny (in which the contortions needed to protect the common ancestry of the major kingdoms make Ptolemaic epicycles look downright elegant), the fossil record (in which the absence of a common ancestor for the major animal phyla is still dismissed as an artifact of incomplete collection, even though 150 years of collecting have shown that the Cambrian explosion is real), and vertebrate embryology (in which dissimilarities in early embryos that do not support the doctrine of common ancestry are explained away, on the grounds that early development evolves more easily than we thought).
Now the author is babbling, he is no longer talking about the genetic code.
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:The truth is that MOST of the evidence cited in support of common ancestry at the levels of kingdoms, phyla and classes has had to be explained away to protect the idea of common ancestry.
What is the evidence for this truth?
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:But if most of the evidence must be explained away, then it's clear that we're dealing with a philosophical doctrine rather than empirical science.
Again what evidence is this based on?
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:Of course, common ancestry may be true at lower levels of the biological hierarchy. For example, everyone would probably agree that all human beings are descended from common ancestors. And even many biblical creationists regard the ability of members of the cat family to hybridize as evidence that they share a common ancestor. In the absence of evidence, however, why should we accept as "fact" the idea that ALL organisms are descended from a common ancestor?
Why is it acceptable here but no further? Where is this line being drawn? Isn't this line arbitrary?
[/quote]

http://www.arn.org/docs/wells/cl_iconsstillstanding.htm
Save the trees!

Tamzek implies that Darwin's tree of life looks simple and "tree-like" apart from the 'molecular thicket' at the root, however this is not the case. It is well recognized in systematics that very often phylogenetic trees based upon one gene or protein sequence, will lead to one tree, while a tree based upon some other biomolecule look quite different.
Different but not quite different. Do some analysis yourself and you will begin to see why. If all you read are opinions you are at least 2 degrees away from the actual data.
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:And even more often, trees based upon biomolecules are at odds with trees created on macromorphological characteristics or the fossil record (and trees based upon different macromorphologies often differ from one another a well).
This is the source of the whale debate. But as you can see the argument is about which ungulate gave rise to whales not wheather whales are descended from land mammals or not.
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:Tamzek claims that the Eukaryote tree is well resolved through Baldauf et al. (2000)99, however this paper escapes typical problems of conflicting trees because it creates one tree using a massive dataset of many protein sequences to statistically obscure the differences between the trees based upon individual proteins.
The tree of life is not complete nor will it be completed any time soon.
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:By creating one "flimsy" tree through many genes, common ancestry cannot be strongly verified through independent converging lines of genetic evidence (admittedly, this is a good technique for creating a phylogeny if one already assumes common ancestry is true, however, as a test of common ancestry, it shows molecular evidence provides little support). In fact, it was found that single-gene phylogenies only "support subsets of the combined protein tree." In other words, the different genes, when taken independently, do not converge to make a nice neat tree.
Care to expand on this? There are many cases of molecular analysis of multiple genes converging.
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:Tamzek claims that the results of this article indicate that Eukaryote phylogeny is coming along "just fine", and that this paper provides a "perfectly traditional and tree-like" phylogeny of the Eukaryotes. As said before, the neatness of this tree is purely the result of statistical techniques and the combined dataset used in the paper. Regardless, Baldauf et al. actually found that their tree has "striking differences from SSU rRNA phylogeny"99, and noted that past studies have also encountered conflicting trees. When faced with differing trees, Darwinists usually manage to retain common ancestry by explaining these discrepancies through differing rates of evolution, differing selection pressures, lateral gene transfer, or even convergent or parallel evolution.
Do you expect that genes will change at the same rates? Do you expect environmental factors not to have an impact on gene selection?
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:However, nonetheless, nice neat Darwinian trees are often hard to come by, and predictions from common ancestry fail, leaving us with epicycle after epicycle. Resorting to lateral gene transfer might not be necessary99, but this paper shows that nice neat Darwinian trees are still elusive for the alleged ancestry of Eukaryotes.
Nice neat trees are difficult, however general phylogenies and empirical analysis helps give clues which might have otherwise been overlooked.
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:Other organisms, whose alleged phylogenetic trees have run into the "thicket" problem, because nice neat Darwinian trees could not be produced by the observed character distributions, include (but are by no means limited to) relationships of major reptile groups62, amniote groups (particularly with the placement of birds)69, major placental mammal groups64, 72, whales (both as an order within class mammalia63, and its sub-groups 65, 66), songbirds74, bats (as an order within class mammalia and its sub-groups)64, 67, 69, rodents64, 68, 72, lagomorphs (rabbits)69, 72, artiodactyls sub-groups72, insectivores64, 72, chimps (their position within the order primates)69, sea urchins72, many major plant groups71, angiosperm sub-groups69, 71, marsupials (in relation to monotremes and placentals)72, osteichthyans (in their alleged relationship to tetrapods)69, some deuterostome phyla69, and many Eukaryote groups (e.g. fungi70, 99, plants99, and metazoa99).
Have you actually looked at the data to see what these problems may be? You may be surprised how this particular article is blowing these problems out of proportion.
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:Schwabe and Warr73 found that proteins such as relaxin, insulins, adrenocorticotropic hormone, somatostatin, histocompatability antigens, neural glycoproteins and microglobulin are distributed in both animal and non-animal groups in ways which differ markedly from Darwin's alleged tree of life.
This I will research more.
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:Early in the molecular revolution there was some hope that molecular phylogenies of mammalian orders would match those created by morphology64, 72, however as more data came in, the tree became less and less "Darwinian". In fact, in 1998, de Jong noted that:
"the wealth of competing morphological, as well as molecular proposals [of] the prevailing phylogenies of the mammalian orders would reduce [the mammalian tree] to an unresolved bush, the only consistent clade probably being the grouping of elephants and sea cows."72
More data is better than less, if you have an alternative explanation please share. For now there is much to be learned and that is what science is about.
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:Systematist Colin Patterson also did a review of congruence between trees generated by morphology and trees created by molecular data and found that "congruence between molecular phylogenies is as elusive as it is in morphology and as it is between molecules and morphology"69. His study concluded that after reviewing trees based off of molecular and morphological data, their hopes of verifying morphologically derived trees were "dampened."69 This does not square well with Tamzek's claim that "[molecular] phylogenies are reliable and in reasonably good accord with phylogenies generated from other data." In closing, this reoccurring "thicket" problem shows that the tree of life, if all life is even inter-related, is surely very different from its portrayal in textbooks.
Of course it is simplified for the sake of teaching, only a professional who understands the intracacies can fully appreciate the areas which require further study and debate.
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/myht_of ... gy_05.html
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:cientists started analyzing a variety of genes from different organisms and found that their relationship to each other contradicted the evolutionary tree of life derived from rRNA analysis alone.302
Again a repeated statement, the more we analyze the more we can paint a more conclusive picture.
No consistent organismal phylogeny has emerged from the many individual protein phylogenies so far produced. Phylogenetic incongruities can be seen everywhere in the universal tree, from its root to the major branchings within and among the various [groups] to the makeup of the primary groupings themselves.303
Have you had a chance to analyze the actual data?
A year ago, biologists looking over newly sequenced genomes from more than a dozen microorganisms thought these data might support the accepted plot lines of life's early history. But what they saw confounded them. Comparisons of the genomes then available not only didn't clarify the picture of how life's major groupings evolved, they confused it.
This is true.
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:And now, with an additional eight microbial sequences in hand, the situation has gotten even more confusing.... Many evolutionary biologists had thought they could roughly see the beginnings of life's three kingdoms... When full DNA sequences opened the way to comparing other kinds of genes, researchers expected that they would simply add detail to this tree. But "nothing could be further from the truth," says Claire Fraser, head of The Institute for Genomic Research (TIGR) in Rockville, Maryland. Instead, the comparisons have yielded many versions of the tree of life that differ from the rRNA tree and conflict with each other as well...304
It appears microorganisms have diverged greatly, more than anyone could have imagined.
Inconsistencies among trees based on different molecules, and the bizarre trees that result from some molecular analyses, have now plunged molecular phylogeny into a crisis.305
Again I would encourage you to look at the data yourself instead of taking the opinion of others.
=D
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote: BGood again:
Imagine the sequences like cooking instructions. Each letter represent a different step. You can see that the recipe for the cow and sheep is identicle. The whale is almost the same.

However the ones for the monkey, kangaroo, and bat are different.

And if you delve further into the differences a significant pattern emerges.


Doesn't this ignore "junk" DNA, among other things?
As far as we can tell junk DNA does not encode for genes and therefore not subjected to selective pressures. And therefore not subjected to comparative analysis. This may or may not change in the near future. Who knows what new discoveries lie ahead.
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:But, alas, as we know...BGood, a man went to college to be an engineer...will attempt to single handedly refute my three sources...
You bet ya.
=)
Not surprisingly, none of the three sources actually gave any empirical evidence, I strongly suggest you look at the data and use that to refute points. Opinions although valued in everyday life are immaterial in science.
It is not length of life, but depth of life. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

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#38

Post by sandy_mcd » Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:51 pm

BGoodForGoodSake wrote:
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:The non-universality of the genetic code is not a minor quibble, but part of a general pattern. In 1991, Phillip Johnson argued in Darwin On Trial that common ancestry the so-called "fact of evolution" is not an empirical hypothesis for Darwinists, but a logical consequence of their naturalistic philosophy.
This is an interesting point. What part of the naturalistic philosophy of evolution requires common ancestry and a single original lifeform? Why can't evolution cope with the idea that life originated more than once and that there are multiple trees/bushes/thickets with distinct origins?
BGoodForGoodSake wrote:
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:Of course, common ancestry may be true at lower levels of the biological hierarchy. For example, everyone would probably agree that all human beings are descended from common ancestors. And even many biblical creationists regard the ability of members of the cat family to hybridize as evidence that they share a common ancestor. In the absence of evidence, however, why should we accept as "fact" the idea that ALL organisms are descended from a common ancestor?
Why is it acceptable here but no further? Where is this line being drawn? Isn't this line arbitrary?
It seems pretty obvious - take a common noun and a bunch of animals that pretty much look alike and put them in the same family (making sure to keep human beings separate). So you've got your cat family, your dog family, cow family, etc. Preferably stick with large well known mammals and ignore oddballs like cheetahs, hyenas. The less familiar you are with animals, the larger you can make your groupings, such as the fish family, the bug family.

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#39

Post by BGoodForGoodSake » Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:06 am

sandy_mcd wrote:
BGoodForGoodSake wrote:
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:Of course, common ancestry may be true at lower levels of the biological hierarchy. For example, everyone would probably agree that all human beings are descended from common ancestors. And even many biblical creationists regard the ability of members of the cat family to hybridize as evidence that they share a common ancestor. In the absence of evidence, however, why should we accept as "fact" the idea that ALL organisms are descended from a common ancestor?
Why is it acceptable here but no further? Where is this line being drawn? Isn't this line arbitrary?
It seems pretty obvious - take a common noun and a bunch of animals that pretty much look alike and put them in the same family (making sure to keep human beings separate). So you've got your cat family, your dog family, cow family, etc. Preferably stick with large well known mammals and ignore oddballs like cheetahs, hyenas. The less familiar you are with animals, the larger you can make your groupings, such as the fish family, the bug family.
Lol
Thank you Sandy.
=)
As sandy so humourously pointed out the lines are subjective. The difference between a grasshopper and yellowjacket is much greater than the difference between a whale and a cow!

What are these kinds we are all refering to?
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#40

Post by AttentionKMartShoppers » Thu Jan 19, 2006 10:38 am

BGood, you, an engineer...are just tossing questions out against a guy....with a PhD in molecular and cell biology. This...is funny.


Today's responses brought to you by BGood and circular reasoning! W00T
"My actions prove that God takes care of idiots."

He occasionally stumbled over the truth, but hastily picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened.
- On Stanley Baldwin

-Winston Churchill

An atheist can't find God for the same reason a criminal can't find a police officer.

You need to start asking out girls so that you can get used to the rejections.
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#41

Post by BGoodForGoodSake » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:46 pm

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:BGood, you, an engineer...are just tossing questions out against a guy....with a PhD in molecular and cell biology. This...is funny.

Today's responses brought to you by BGood and circular reasoning! W00T
You see PhD and therefore forgoe any individual investigation?
Did you read any of the papers he cited in his essay?

The papers were basically just essay's of personal thoughts, which you happen to agree with.

Striving for the reinforcement of ones beleifs does not lead to scientific progress.

I suggest you actually look at the data, otherwise it is your loss.
=P

To start you off here is the data used to do molecular comparisons of various mammilian groups using the sequence from exon 28.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Citation

Here is an article describing the difficulties in resolving descrepancies of phylogenic charts derived from various molecular comparisons. As you will surely notice upon closer analysis, it is not to the point of crisis.
lol
More data, and more analysis is what science is all about.
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/18/2/132


btw this is empirical data, no more opinions please.

1 ctgtgatggt gtcaacctca cctgtgaagc ctgccaggag ccggggagcc cagttcttcc
61 ggccacggag gcccccattg gccccaccac cccatatgtg gaggacacct ccgaatttcc
121 cctgcacgac ttcttctgcg gcaagctgct agacctggcc ttcctgctgg acggctccaa
181 caagctgtcg gaggctgagt ttgaagccct gaaggccttt gtggtgggca tgatggagcg
241 gctgcacatc tcccagaagc ggatccgggt gggcctggtg gaataccacg atggctccca
301 cgcctacctc gagctcaaga accggaaacc gccctcggag ctgcggcgca tcgctagcca
361 ggtgcggtac gtgggcagcc aggtggcctc cgccagtgag gtcttgaagt acacgctgtt
421 ccaggtcttc ggcaaggctg accgccccga ggcctcccgc atcgccctgc tcctgacggc
481 cagccaggag tccccgcaga tggcccggaa cctggtccgc tatgtgcagg gaatgaagaa
541 gaagaagatc atcgtcatcc cggtgggtat cgggccccac gccaacctca agcagatccg
601 cctcattgag aagcaggccc cggagaacaa ggccttcgtg ctgagcagtg tggacgaact
661 ggagcggcgc cgggacgaga tcattagcta cctctgtgac ctcgcccccg agccgcccgc
721 cccctccgcg gcagcccctg tggcacaggc caccgtgggt gcccctggtc tcgggggtct
781 tgtcctggga cccaagggga actctgtggt tctggatgtg gtgtttctcc tggaagggtc
841 ggaccagatc ggcgaggctg gcttcaaccg gagcagggag ttcgtggagg aggtgatccg
901 gcggatggac gtgggctggg acggcatcca cgtgaccgtg ctgcagttcg cctacatggt
961 gacggtggag tacaccttca gcgaggcgca gtccaagacc gacatcctgc ggcgggttgg
1021 ggagatgcag ttccggggtg gcaacaggac aaacacgggg ctggccctgc agtacctctc
1081 ggagcacagc ttcaccagcc aggacgaccg ggagcaggca cccaacctgg tctacctggt
1141 cacagggacc cccccctcgg acgagatcag gcgcttgccg ggtgacatcg aggtggtgcc
1201 catcggcgtg ggccctcaag tcagcatgca ggagctggag accctcagct gcccgcaccc
1261 ccccatccta aa
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#42

Post by AttentionKMartShoppers » Thu Jan 19, 2006 4:42 pm

BGoodForGoodSake wrote:
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:BGood, you, an engineer...are just tossing questions out against a guy....with a PhD in molecular and cell biology. This...is funny.

Today's responses brought to you by BGood and circular reasoning! W00T
You see PhD and therefore forgoe any individual investigation?
Did you read any of the papers he cited in his essay?

The papers were basically just essay's of personal thoughts, which you happen to agree with.

Striving for the reinforcement of ones beleifs does not lead to scientific progress.

I suggest you actually look at the data, otherwise it is your loss.
=P

To start you off here is the data used to do molecular comparisons of various mammilian groups using the sequence from exon 28.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Citation

Here is an article describing the difficulties in resolving descrepancies of phylogenic charts derived from various molecular comparisons. As you will surely notice upon closer analysis, it is not to the point of crisis.
lol
More data, and more analysis is what science is all about.
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/18/2/132


btw this is empirical data, no more opinions please.
So, all my sources are just opinions...that's a neat way...poisoning the well are we? I guess it must be the best response to accusations of circular reasoning.

Image



And zenith, shut up, I can handle what I dish out...I just know you're gonna pop in here and be a pimple on my butt.
"My actions prove that God takes care of idiots."

He occasionally stumbled over the truth, but hastily picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened.
- On Stanley Baldwin

-Winston Churchill

An atheist can't find God for the same reason a criminal can't find a police officer.

You need to start asking out girls so that you can get used to the rejections.
-Anonymous

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#43

Post by BGoodForGoodSake » Thu Jan 19, 2006 6:10 pm

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:So, all my sources are just opinions...that's a neat way...poisoning the well are we? I guess it must be the best response to accusations of circular reasoning.

Image
Most of that essay was simply disbeleif from incredulity, such as "
the absence of a common ancestor for the major animal phyla is still dismissed as an artifact of incomplete collection, even though 150 years of collecting have shown that the Cambrian explosion is real"

This isn't science, it's an opinion.

There were valid points such as the inability to come to an agreement on the details of the tree of life.

However this line of argument does not lead you to the disproval of evolution. I suggest you find a way to disprove evolution and see if the observations support this.

For example let us hypothesize mutations occur, however a limitation exist on the actual mutations which could cause speciation.

If you could show this then evolution goes down the drain.

Otherwise where do you draw the line?

Can an cat and a lion really be from the same kind, but a dog and a cat not be related? Why?

What about an ocelot and a cheetah?

What is this line based on?

Why a elephant and a seacow ok, but a whale and a cow not?

"the wealth of competing morphological, as well as molecular proposals [of] the prevailing phylogenies of the mammalian orders would reduce [the mammalian tree] to an unresolved bush, the only consistent clade probably being the grouping of elephants and sea cows."

Does this mean that the relations do not exist or are cloudy?
The paper proposes that this means that they do not exist but on what grounds?
Does the author provide an alternate explanation?
How does he explain the extinct fossil forms?
How does one explain the non existance of modern forms in the fossil record?
How does one explain the molecular similarities?
How does one explain the disimilarities and the patterns which emerge?
Etc etc..

One needs to account for all the data we have, criticising is good, however dismissing ideas because of shortfalls is cowardly without a counter explanation.
It is not length of life, but depth of life. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

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#44

Post by AttentionKMartShoppers » Thu Jan 19, 2006 7:01 pm

Misrepresenting the argument...what fun.

Begging the question. BGood, you cease to amaze me. May I suggest a book? Or two?

Image
Last edited by AttentionKMartShoppers on Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.
"My actions prove that God takes care of idiots."

He occasionally stumbled over the truth, but hastily picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened.
- On Stanley Baldwin

-Winston Churchill

An atheist can't find God for the same reason a criminal can't find a police officer.

You need to start asking out girls so that you can get used to the rejections.
-Anonymous

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Re: A New ANTI-Evolution website!!!

#45

Post by Cliffwood PCA » Thu Jan 19, 2006 7:33 pm

dougp59 wrote:Please visit my new anti-evolution website;

http://www.evolutionsucks.org

The battle against evolution intensifies!
Well... I thought the site was pretty well put together anyway. :)
Blessings,
MC

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