Flood and Ark

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
sandy_mcd
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#166

Post by sandy_mcd » Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:12 pm

Jbuza wrote:Meteoroids of more than about 10 tons (9,000 kg) will retain a portion of their original speed, or cosmic velocity, all the way to the surface.
I was looking at Google maps some time ago and saw this curious feature to the right of the "c" in Quebec, so I had to look it up (check this link to see what it looks like on Google map): http://maps.google.com/?ll=52.268157,-7 ... ,58.095703
Image
Image
[Quote from link below:]
The target rock in the vicinity of the crater is Grenville age amphibolite to granulite facies quartz and feldspar gneiss, with local anorthosites, metagabbro and metasediments overlain by Ordovician limestones, dolomites, slates and sandstones. The force of the impact exhumed and liquefied these target rocks down to as deep as 9 kilometres. The crater became a melting pot for relatively young rocks at the surface and for much of the older minerals originally buried kilometres below the site of the impact. The heat released was so intense that it took between 1,600 and 5,000 years before the melted rocks cooled.

The Manicouagan impact was so forceful that it ejected material out of the atmosphere and sent it on a ballistic trajectory around the earth. Like the Chicxulub impact, the Manicouagan impact left behind a global geochemical signature in the rock record (Note 3). The impact also triggered powerful seismic events (Note 4). The fireball generated by the impact probably expanded as far as the present location of New York City. Click for full viewFive geological features of the crater were defined by Grieve and Head in 1983 and are labeled in the LANDSAT image (Courtesy NASA/LPI) as follows:

* outer disturbed zone 150 km in diameter;
* inner fracture zone 100 km in diameter;
* annular moat 65 km in diameter;
* inner plateau 56 km in diameter, and;
* central uplift region 25 km in diameter.
http://ottawa.rasc.ca/astronomy/earth_c ... nicouagan/

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#167

Post by dad » Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:25 am

sandy_mcd wrote:... The heat released was so intense that it took between 1,600 and 5,000 years before the melted rocks cooled.
Can you tell us exactly how they think they know this? Sounds wrong, mayybe it was something like a fountain of the ddep, where the water came up?

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#168

Post by BGoodForGoodSake » Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:53 pm

dad wrote:
sandy_mcd wrote:... The heat released was so intense that it took between 1,600 and 5,000 years before the melted rocks cooled.
Can you tell us exactly how they think they know this? Sounds wrong, mayybe it was something like a fountain of the ddep, where the water came up?
The presence of Iridium and shocked quartz leads one to the conclusion that the formation is likely caused by a meteor impact.

Before shocked quartz was first discovered naturally, the only known occurance was found in atomic weapons test sites.
It is not length of life, but depth of life. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

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#169

Post by dad » Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:49 pm

BGoodForGoodSake wrote:...
The presence of Iridium and shocked quartz leads one to the conclusion that the formation is likely caused by a meteor impact.

Before shocked quartz was first discovered naturally, the only known occurance was found in atomic weapons test sites.
Ok, I don't have much to say on that one at the moment. I have a few ideas, but need to research more.
One thing, though, you mentioned it took I think it was 1600 years or something for it to cool. How would you exactly think you know that?

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#170

Post by sandy_mcd » Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:44 pm

dad wrote: One thing, though, you mentioned it took I think it was 1600 years or something for it to cool. How would you exactly think you know that?
The website said 1600 to 5000 years, so it does sound like a very rough estimate. Remember, this is an event which (appears to have) happened 240 million years ago. I have no idea where that range of numbers came from. [I couldn't find any handy references, most of the journals are not easy for me to get. Here's some more pictures of other sites: http://www.solarviews.com/eng/tercrate.htm]

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#171

Post by dad » Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:29 am

sandy_mcd wrote:
dad wrote: One thing, though, you mentioned it took I think it was 1600 years or something for it to cool. How would you exactly think you know that?
The website said 1600 to 5000 years, so it does sound like a very rough estimate. Remember, this is an event which (appears to have) happened 240 million years ago. I have no idea where that range of numbers came from. [I couldn't find any handy references, most of the journals are not easy for me to get. Here's some more pictures of other sites: http://www.solarviews.com/eng/tercrate.htm]
Well, that is a problem. You see, the shock thing is one thing, but to be a meteor, we probably need the heat thing as well. Dates they give are meaningless, as they are based on certain assumptions. What we do know (if they are right) is that this KT event, or phenomena happened in the Cretaceous. I lean toward seeing this as pre flood. Also, aprox the time Adam died, around the extinction of the dinosaurs.
This is why I need proof of this so called great heat that lasted maybe thousands of years.

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#172

Post by BGoodForGoodSake » Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:10 am

dad wrote:
sandy_mcd wrote:
dad wrote: One thing, though, you mentioned it took I think it was 1600 years or something for it to cool. How would you exactly think you know that?
The website said 1600 to 5000 years, so it does sound like a very rough estimate. Remember, this is an event which (appears to have) happened 240 million years ago. I have no idea where that range of numbers came from. [I couldn't find any handy references, most of the journals are not easy for me to get. Here's some more pictures of other sites: http://www.solarviews.com/eng/tercrate.htm]
Well, that is a problem. You see, the shock thing is one thing, but to be a meteor, we probably need the heat thing as well. Dates they give are meaningless, as they are based on certain assumptions. What we do know (if they are right) is that this KT event, or phenomena happened in the Cretaceous. I lean toward seeing this as pre flood. Also, aprox the time Adam died, around the extinction of the dinosaurs.
This is why I need proof of this so called great heat that lasted maybe thousands of years.
The molten material was at this site only.

The presence feldspar gneiss points to high temperatures and pressure.
Crystalization paterns suggest long cooling periods.

The time it took to cool is based on crystalization of the rocks.
The coarser the grains the slower it cooled.
It is not length of life, but depth of life. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

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#173

Post by dad » Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:43 am

BGoodForGoodSake wrote:....The molten material was at this site only.

The presence feldspar gneiss points to high temperatures and pressure.
Crystalization paterns suggest long cooling periods.

The time it took to cool is based on crystalization of the rocks.
The coarser the grains the slower it cooled.
"....Nevertheless, some workers dispute its impact origin and continue to proffer opinions that the Chicxulub structure is a volcanic sequence of Late Cretaceous age (Meyerhoff et al., 1994)."
http://meteorite.org/KT2.htm
Since we do not know that much about the pre flood earth, and pre split conditions, there seems much room to interpret things differently.
Having things come up from the earth, seems to make sense to me. This would still agree with the dispersal by wind, and pattern of larger and smaller particles as we get closer or further from the crater. If this was a crater or vent of some kind, maybe it did become a fountain of the deep also, later, at flood time? There are many possiblities besides the meteor one for some of these craters. Others, are different, and would be meteors. How do we know the difference? In the far past, that rests on present based assumptions.

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#174

Post by BGoodForGoodSake » Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:46 pm

dad wrote: "....Nevertheless, some workers dispute its impact origin and continue to proffer opinions that the Chicxulub structure is a volcanic sequence of Late Cretaceous age (Meyerhoff et al., 1994)."
http://meteorite.org/KT2.htm
Since we do not know that much about the pre flood earth, and pre split conditions, there seems much room to interpret things differently.
Having things come up from the earth, seems to make sense to me. This would still agree with the dispersal by wind, and pattern of larger and smaller particles as we get closer or further from the crater. If this was a crater or vent of some kind, maybe it did become a fountain of the deep also, later, at flood time? There are many possiblities besides the meteor one for some of these craters. Others, are different, and would be meteors. How do we know the difference? In the far past, that rests on present based assumptions.
The quote has been taken out of context.

"Nevertheless, some workers dispute its impact origin and continue to proffer opinions that the Chicxulub structure is a volcanic sequence of Late Cretaceous age (Meyerhoff et al., 1994). These opinions are based in part on early well-log descriptions of andesite and bentonitic breccia-now recognized as a sequence of impact-melt rock and suevitic breccia (Sharpion et al., 1992)."

Chicxulub is clearly an impact site due to the iridium enrichment and shocked material.
It is not length of life, but depth of life. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

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#175

Post by dad » Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:57 pm

BGoodForGoodSake wrote:...
Chicxulub is clearly an impact site due to the iridium enrichment and shocked material.
Clearly, things came up to the surface of earth from below in the pre flood. Iridium is from deep in the earth we know, as well as in space. That leaves quartz. Can you prove that no pre split process cause the patterns in the quartz?

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#176

Post by BGoodForGoodSake » Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:18 pm

dad wrote:
BGoodForGoodSake wrote:...
Chicxulub is clearly an impact site due to the iridium enrichment and shocked material.
Clearly, things came up to the surface of earth from below in the pre flood. Iridium is from deep in the earth we know, as well as in space. That leaves quartz. Can you prove that no pre split process cause the patterns in the quartz?
Are you certain that there is a greater amount of iridium within the Earth?
Why then don't volcanic eruption not have elevated levels of Iridium???

Why is pre split an explanation for everything?
Don't you think that its getting out of hand?
Gravity, Decay Rates, Thermal Energy, Sunshine Depandancy of plants, Carniverous Behaviour, and now Shocked quartz is all due to pre split conditions?

Why is shocked material present here and not elsewhere?
It is not length of life, but depth of life. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

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#177

Post by dad » Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:10 pm

BGoodForGoodSake wrote:...
Are you certain that there is a greater amount of iridium within the Earth?
Why then don't volcanic eruption not have elevated levels of Iridium???
It all came up that needed to I guess? Also there may have been a method to the madness, and a reason it came up. Your everything is a fluke number is dreamland stuff.
Why is pre split an explanation for everything?
Don't you think that its getting out of hand?
Gravity, Decay Rates, Thermal Energy, Sunshine Depandancy of plants, Carniverous Behaviour, and now Shocked quartz is all due to pre split conditions?
Minerals could get scratched then as well, or had some violence happen, or transport through much earth, etc etc etc, no? When the fabric of the universe was different, no sense trying to pretend it was the same!
Why is shocked material present here and not elsewhere?
It has been found all over the world, according to some sites I looked at, haven't you heard?

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#178

Post by BGoodForGoodSake » Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:30 pm

BGoodForGoodSake wrote:...
Are you certain that there is a greater amount of iridium within the Earth?
Why then don't volcanic eruption not have elevated levels of Iridium???
It all came up that needed to I guess?
You guess? Care to give an analysis or do you not know how to conduct science?
dad wrote:Also there may have been a method to the madness, and a reason it came up.
Thank you for the reasurance, however don't you want to know why?
dad wrote:Your everything is a fluke number is dreamland stuff.
Well, Iridium is not found weverywhere in elevated concentrations, thus the adjective elevated. There must be some sort of explanation, no? And why the resistance to the idea that a meteor may have impacted here? How does that effect your worldview?
dad wrote:
Why is pre split an explanation for everything?
Don't you think that its getting out of hand?
Gravity, Decay Rates, Thermal Energy, Sunshine Depandancy of plants, Carniverous Behaviour, and now Shocked quartz is all due to pre split conditions?
Minerals could get scratched then as well, or had some violence happen, or transport through much earth, etc etc etc, no?
Please explain, you lost me.
dad wrote:When the fabric of the universe was different, no sense trying to pretend it was the same!
There is no evidence it was different. Who is the one pretending?
dad wrote:
Why is shocked material present here and not elsewhere?
It has been found all over the world, according to some sites I looked at, haven't you heard?
It's distributed evenly? So I can just go into my backyard and there will be some there? Then why even mention it?

May I ask which sites?
May I also ask why you feel the need to dismiss this theory?
Also why do you gravitate to certain web sites?
I could find a web site which claims just about anything, is there any significance to that? Have you actually done any research before?

Are you absolutely certain that shocked quartz is not a significant detail?
It is not length of life, but depth of life. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

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#179

Post by sandy_mcd » Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:57 pm

dad wrote: Having things come up from the earth, seems to make sense to me. This would still agree with the dispersal by wind, and pattern of larger and smaller particles as we get closer or further from the crater. If this was a crater or vent of some kind, maybe it did become a fountain of the deep also, later, at flood time? There are many possiblities besides the meteor one for some of these craters. Others, are different, and would be meteors. How do we know the difference? In the far past, that rests on present based assumptions.
Hi dad, most of your statements are beyond my ability to discuss, but let me try this one. If the crater is in the surface of a rock layer and does not penetrate, how can it be a fountain or a vent? You can take a hammer and put a dent in a can of peas, but unless you break through the metal layer, none of the contents will come out. If you look at the profiles, these craters seem to be just dents in a surface. [Admittedly, I have no understanding of where your deeps were contained preflood, but surely there must be some evidence of a hollow or a collapsed cavity.]

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#180

Post by dad » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:14 pm

BGoodForGoodSake wrote:....

Well, Iridium is not found weverywhere in elevated concentrations, thus the adjective elevated. There must be some sort of explanation, no? And why the resistance to the idea that a meteor may have impacted here? How does that effect your worldview?
Maybe it was, but I take it with a grain of salt for now. In the present, we don't see water coming up to water the earth, or other things coming up with it much, like salt, etc. The present is different in many ways. Things like a world of water and it's weight pressing down on the earth, and even things like possible chemical and other changes in some rocks. Chert is formed underwater, some think dolomite is formed in a process starting as evaporation in limestone, etc. Water did come up, whether it was mainly localized in some ares, and spread out from there, or was evenly brought up, we don't know. If some areas were sources for this we would expect concentrations or elevated levels of some things in some areas.
Assumptions as to the cause of some of these are also less than certain.

For example, on a North Sea 'crater', this observation..
"They also eliminated salt intrusions from lower layers of rock, because the underlying Triassic and Permian strata were undisturbed. "
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... rater.html
So, I don't assume a present world type of intrusion, therefore, until the evidence is clear, I reserve judgement.

a volcanic origin which was also proposed as a cause for the iridium enrichment. Furthermore the chromium isotopic ratios determined in the K-T boundary are similar to the chromium isotopic ratios found in carbonaceous chondrites.

http://www.armageddononline.org/impact_event.php

"carbonaceous chondrite ..
A rare type of stony meteorite which contains large amounts of the magnesium-rich minerals olivine and serpentine and a variety of organic compounds.."
http://www.daviddarling.info/encycloped ... bchon.html
(Olivine something deep under the earth in case you didn't catch the relation.)

Also, there are some strange things that require assumptions to try to explain.."

A borehole drilled into the Chicxulub structure hit 380 meters (more than 1000 feet) of igneous rock with a strange chemistry. That chemistry could have been generated by melting together a mixture of the sedimentary rocks in the region. The igneous rock under Chicxulub contains high levels of iridium

But the evidence for an extraterrestrial impact is so strong that it's a waste of time to try to explain away that evidence as volcanic effects
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/education/ ... wen1b.html
Please explain, you lost me.
I simply wonder if anything else not in the present world processes could have caused shocked quartz. Maybe not, but just because present processes could not produce it, I haven't heard enough about it to be sure only a meteor could cause it. You seem to be but haven't really said much about it.
I could find a web site which claims just about anything,
I could find a book that says anything as well. A lot of current research is on the net. Representing experts and decades of work in many cases.

Are you absolutely certain that shocked quartz is not a significant detail?
No, it likely is significant. Question is how?

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