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Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
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Believer
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#46

Post by Believer » Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:40 am

Blob wrote:
Thinker wrote:Atheism is no belief in God, none.
Correct.
Blob wrote:
Thinker wrote:Atheists say they know for a FACT that He doesn't exist, there is no way, none whatsoever
Some might, but most I know do not. Including myself.
Do you know the true agenda to the individuals thoughts that you know? How do you know they might be making claims that are not true? I know there are very ungodly people that seem to not possess a belief in God, when it turns out they do.
Blob wrote:
Thinker wrote:(although I am strongly inclined to believe they know God exists, they just have rejected Him so much that they can't see it with their own two eyes).
That is your incredulity that others can have different opinions to yourself. Don't worry, it is a symptom of youth and I was that way too once. Nothing wrong with it at all.
No, it is not a symptom of my "youth". The Bible explicitly states ALL people know God exists, it is there decision to stimulate that belief or not.
Blob wrote:
Thinker wrote:Your atheist statement is more of an agnostic statement.
Consider the hypothesis: "There is a Christian god".

Do you believe it? Do you know for sure?

Christian: Yes and yes.
Atheist: No and no.
Agnostic: I don't know what I believe and, what's more, it is unknowable.
Yes but you said that atheists don't belive in God but possess the thought that God might exist, an atheist completely rejects the idea of God.
Blob wrote:
Thinker wrote:I believe ALL people have the spirit of God in them, it is just the persons decision to let it bear fruit or not, and if they don't, they still have it, but they allow that decision to land their fate. Sorry :cry:.
It must be horrible to really believe that, Thinker. Like watching people run willingly into a burning building. Sorry for you.
I think I worded that wrong. I strongly believe ALL people possess the qualities of God, but they can either reject those qualities and act like an animal, or not. Have you witnessed people running willingly into a burning building? Ever heard of firefighters? Even if they did it because they wanted to, do you not consider the possibility that people can have disruption in their thoughts that provoke them to do it? As I have said, my dad is doctor who works with other secular doctors, medical studies do not deny the possibilities of possessions.

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#47

Post by Blob » Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:43 am

Thinker wrote:Matthew 24:34
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
So that means the earth and the heavens (space) has already passed away, as in being completely destroyed?
Sorry Thinker, I'm not sure what you mean. (For me that verse indicates Jesus' second coming would be within a less than a lifetime of the resurrection.)
Blob wrote:I do think you are an agnostic, you just seem to like to claim you are an atheist. You may lack belief, but is that lack complete?
My lack of belief is complete, but I acknowledge I could be wrong. There might be a god, but I don't believe it (for now at least).
Blob wrote:They are flawed and unconvincing because you don't want to see the truth in it?
Possibly that is the reason, yes.
I do find them convincing, if they actually are truthful. I have done exhaustive research to help me find more truth to back up my pre-existing belief in God.
Perhaps you find them convincing because you want them to be true.
Ever heard of the rather amusing God gene?
Yes. It is not evidence for god however, nevermind a christian god. It is a gene showing a very small potential correlation with a disposition towards supernatural beliefs.
Ever read the scripture on how all people know God exists even if they deny it?
No. But I'd be interested in seeing the verse.
Blob wrote:
Thinker wrote:You like to shift around a lot and change things, and leave questions we ask unanswered.
Please draw my attention to any questions directed personally to me that I have missed on these forums. I will happily address them.
Anyone care to show him many unanswered questions?
It seems your accusation was unfair if you had no specific examples in mind.
Blob wrote:Atheists claim to know there is no God, that is their belief, it is not saying I don't believe in a God or gods but think that there might be one. They are completely opposite of believers.
Some claim that, but not most. You are mistaken on what atheism is, although I know you don't want to believe me on this. I am here to find out what Christian's are like. Why not visit an atheist forum and ask "how many atheists here claim to know for sure there is no god?". You might be surprised.
While in external speech thought is embodied in words, in inner speech words die as they bring forth thought.
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#48

Post by Blob » Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:54 am

Thinker wrote:Do you know the true agenda to the individuals thoughts that you know?
Agenda?
How do you know they might be making claims that are not true?
Because these are friends who have earnt my trust. Most people are good people, Thinker, be they atheist or theist.
I know there are very ungodly people that seem to not possess a belief in God, when it turns out they do.
Are you calling me a liar now?
Blob wrote:No, it is not a symptom of my "youth". The Bible explicitly states ALL people know God exists, it is there decision to stimulate that belief or not.
I'd be interested in seeing the verse.
Blob wrote:Yes but you said that atheists don't belive in God but possess the thought that God might exist, an atheist completely rejects the idea of God.
Yes, this is a common notion on this website, I realise, but it is simply not the case. The way to find out what a group of people think is to ask them what they think. Go to a forum and ask as many atheists as you can: "do you claim there definitely is no god?"
Blob wrote:I think I worded that wrong. I strongly believe ALL people possess the qualities of God, but they can either reject those qualities and act like an animal, or not.
Are you saying I act like an animal now?
Have you witnessed people running willingly into a burning building? Ever heard of firefighters?
Ha-de-ha. I meant people willingly killing themselves as I think you know.
As I have said, my dad is doctor who works with other secular doctors, medical studies do not deny the possibilities of possessions.
I never said they do.
While in external speech thought is embodied in words, in inner speech words die as they bring forth thought.
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#49

Post by Believer » Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:13 pm

Blob wrote:
Thinker wrote:
Blob wrote:Matthew 24:34
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
So that means the earth and the heavens (space) has already passed away, as in being completely destroyed?
Sorry Thinker, I'm not sure what you mean. (For me that verse indicates Jesus' second coming would be within a less than a lifetime of the resurrection.)
Already been discussed elsewhere.
Blob wrote:
Thinker wrote:I do think you are an agnostic, you just seem to like to claim you are an atheist. You may lack belief, but is that lack complete?
My lack of belief is complete, but I acknowledge I could be wrong. There might be a god, but I don't believe it (for now at least).
Non-sequitur.
Blob wrote:
Thinker wrote:They are flawed and unconvincing because you don't want to see the truth in it?
Possibly that is the reason, yes.
Blob wrote:
Thinker wrote:I do find them convincing, if they actually are truthful. I have done exhaustive research to help me find more truth to back up my pre-existing belief in God.
Perhaps you find them convincing because you want them to be true.
Actually I compare what is said by others on the same topic of discussion, and even have the privilege of asking trained theologians. Most of it is accurate. Also having to look all the way back to the earliest writings of man. I don't find them convincing because I want them to be true, I find them convincing because I have done research with the mindset of an agnostic and now believe it to be truer.
Blob wrote:
Thinker wrote:Ever heard of the rather amusing God gene?
Yes. It is not evidence for god however, nevermind a christian god. It is a gene showing a very small potential correlation with a disposition towards supernatural beliefs.
Right, it is an amusing claim that was made that I find that it has it's place with the right intention of its use. And tell me this, if there is no God, then why would we have this gene in us to belive there is one? Again, refer to scripture on this. People have had the conviction that there is a God or gods, and assuming evolution to be true, how do these ape-man species who would probably not know there is a God or gods all of a sudden when at human stage know there is a God? It's because God gave us the ability to know Him.
Blob wrote:
Thinker wrote:Ever read the scripture on how all people know God exists even if they deny it?
No. But I'd be interested in seeing the verse.
Homework - http://www.biblegateway.com
Blob wrote:
Thinker wrote:
Blob wrote:
Thinker wrote:You like to shift around a lot and change things, and leave questions we ask unanswered.
Please draw my attention to any questions directed personally to me that I have missed on these forums. I will happily address them.
Anyone care to show him many unanswered questions?
It seems your accusation was unfair if you had no specific examples in mind.
Perhaps, but I have been following closely and you do not answer all questions directed towards you, care to back track yourself to find where you didn't answer?
Blob wrote:
Thinker wrote:Atheists claim to know there is no God, that is their belief, it is not saying I don't believe in a God or gods but think that there might be one. They are completely opposite of believers.
Some claim that, but not most. You are mistaken on what atheism is, although I know you don't want to believe me on this. I am here to find out what Christian's are like. Why not visit an atheist forum and ask "how many atheists here claim to know for sure there is no god?". You might be surprised.
Then they are not atheists. Non-sequitur.

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#50

Post by Believer » Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:26 pm

Blob wrote:
Thinker wrote:Do you know the true agenda to the individuals thoughts that you know?
Agenda?
Do you know what they really think? Do you or can you read their minds?
Blob wrote:
Thinker wrote:How do you know they might be making claims that are not true?
Because these are friends who have earnt my trust. Most people are good people, Thinker, be they atheist or theist.
I agree, however, I have had friends that have good thoughts or good intentions, when they turn around and backstab me. Same with their thoughts.
Blob wrote:
Thinker wrote:I know there are very ungodly people that seem to not possess a belief in God, when it turns out they do.
Are you calling me a liar now?
It all depends... :lol:
Blob wrote:
Thinker wrote:No, it is not a symptom of my "youth". The Bible explicitly states ALL people know God exists, it is there decision to stimulate that belief or not.
I'd be interested in seeing the verse.
http://www.biblegateway.com
Blob wrote:
Thinker wrote:Yes but you said that atheists don't belive in God but possess the thought that God might exist, an atheist completely rejects the idea of God.
Yes, this is a common notion on this website, I realise, but it is simply not the case. The way to find out what a group of people think is to ask them what they think. Go to a forum and ask as many atheists as you can: "do you claim there definitely is no god?"
Hmm, do we need to start on "Defining Atheism 101" again when it is plastered all over the internet?
Blob wrote:
Thinker wrote:I think I worded that wrong. I strongly believe ALL people possess the qualities of God, but they can either reject those qualities and act like an animal, or not.
Are you saying I act like an animal now?
No, I am saying people have "pre-installed" qualities of God that are good, and if they completely reject them, then they at like animals. Ever heard of party animals? People that party so hard, that they act like no human being should be.
Blob wrote:
Thinker wrote:Have you witnessed people running willingly into a burning building? Ever heard of firefighters?
Ha-de-ha. I meant people willingly killing themselves as I think you know.
See below quote...
Blob wrote:
Thinker wrote:As I have said, my dad is doctor who works with other secular doctors, medical studies do not deny the possibilities of possessions.
I never said they do.

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#51

Post by Blob » Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:33 pm

Thinker wrote:
My lack of belief is complete, but I acknowledge I could be wrong. There might be a god, but I don't believe it (for now at least).
Non-sequitur.
Eh? For a statement to be a non-sequitor it needs the format "because of this-and-that it follows such-and-such".
Actually I compare what is said by others on the same topic of discussion, and even have the privilege of asking trained theologians. Most of it is accurate. Also having to look all the way back to the earliest writings of man. I don't find them convincing because I want them to be true, I find them convincing because I have done research with the mindset of an agnostic and now believe it to be truer.
Perhaps you are mistaken and have built an illusory castle in the sky of truth. Many atheists are former theists whose faith cracked despite themselves when doing research, so it works both ways.
Blob wrote:And tell me this, if there is no God, then why would we have this gene in us to belive there is one?
The effects of the gene, if any, have been measured as very small. It is correlated with a general tendency towards supernatural beliefs rather than specifically a christian god.
Again, refer to scripture on this.
Which verse?
People have had the conviction that there is a God or gods, and assuming evolution to be true, how do these ape-man species who would probably not know there is a God or gods all of a sudden when at human stage know there is a God?
Our imaginations and insecurities seem a good candidate for the origin of supernatural beings. As children our parents seem all powerful and protect us. As people grow up they substitute these omnicapable parents with a mystical father figure.
Blob wrote:
Thinker wrote:Ever read the scripture on how all people know God exists even if they deny it?
No. But I'd be interested in seeing the verse.
Homework - http://www.biblegateway.com
Biblegateway is already in my favourites. I wanted the specific verse you refered to.
Blob wrote:Perhaps, but I have been following closely and you do not answer all questions directed towards you, care to back track yourself to find where you didn't answer?
I'm begining to suspect you just made it up about me dodging questions now.
Some claim that, but not most. You are mistaken on what atheism is, although I know you don't want to believe me on this. I am here to find out what Christian's are like. Why not visit an atheist forum and ask "how many atheists here claim to know for sure there is no god?". You might be surprised.
Then they are not atheists. Non-sequitur.
See my comment about non-sequitors above.
While in external speech thought is embodied in words, in inner speech words die as they bring forth thought.
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#52

Post by Blob » Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:41 pm

Thinker wrote:Do you know what they really think? Do you or can you read their minds?
Many have proved themselves not to be fair weather friends time and again.
Thinker wrote:I agree, however, I have had friends that have good thoughts or good intentions, when they turn around and backstab me. Same with their thoughts.
I've fallen out with one or two friends before, but most my friends I have known for years and have not had your bad luck. Sorry to hear that, Thinker.
Thinker wrote:No, it is not a symptom of my "youth". The Bible explicitly states ALL people know God exists, it is there decision to stimulate that belief or not.
I'd be interested in seeing the verse.
http://www.biblegateway.com
Yes, but the verse?
Hmm, do we need to start on "Defining Atheism 101" again when it is plastered all over the internet?
So that's where everyone's misconception comes from here. Do you ask atheists when you want to know what Christianity is? Why go to Christians to find out what atheism is?
Blob wrote:No, I am saying people have "pre-installed" qualities of God that are good, and if they completely reject them, then they at like animals. Ever heard of party animals? People that party so hard, that they act like no human being should be.
I hate parties. They are too loud, bore me and I don't like drunk people. If I became a christian I would not have to make any significant changes to my lifestyle. Given my preference for a quiet, scholarly and sober lifestyle do I act like an animal?
While in external speech thought is embodied in words, in inner speech words die as they bring forth thought.
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#53

Post by Believer » Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:51 pm

I'm done Blob, obviously you have no TRUE intention of being here, maybe I don't see it, but I can't find it. You just want to argue with everyone and make all that you say to be true and everyone false. Assuming from what you said in a previous post somewhere stating you over do it with science (something kind of like that), of course you intend to take everything with science and what it says in mind, kind of closed if you ask me. You may know much about your fields of "science", but when it comes to the Bible, you don't, because you misinterpret mostly everything. You say you are here to "study" Christians, kind of odd to me. I don't really know why you're here, but whatever. I'm not giving up, I just don't care to discuss with a closed-minded person. Perhaps that is wrong, but I have no energy to keep this up.

Anyone else want to takeover?

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#54

Post by Byblos » Fri Oct 28, 2005 1:47 pm

Blob wrote:I hate parties. They are too loud, bore me and I don't like drunk people. If I became a christian I would not have to make any significant changes to my lifestyle. Given my preference for a quiet, scholarly and sober lifestyle do I act like an animal?


You're probably closer to being Christian than many Christians.
Thinker wrote:I'm done Blob, obviously you have no TRUE intention of being here, maybe I don't see it, but I can't find it. You just want to argue with everyone and make all that you say to be true and everyone false. Assuming from what you said in a previous post somewhere stating you over do it with science (something kind of like that), of course you intend to take everything with science and what it says in mind, kind of closed if you ask me. You may know much about your fields of "science", but when it comes to the Bible, you don't, because you misinterpret mostly everything. You say you are here to "study" Christians, kind of odd to me. I don't really know why you're here, but whatever. I'm not giving up, I just don't care to discuss with a closed-minded person. Perhaps that is wrong, but I have no energy to keep this up.

Anyone else want to takeover?


Thinker, I'm not taking over and I wish you would continue as I rather enjoy your and Blob's exchanges. But think of his presence as a test of your own faith. Not that I'm questioning it but rather that God is testing your endurance to defend it. It's possible that Blob is not doing you a disservice, quite the opposite.

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#55

Post by Fortigurn » Fri Oct 28, 2005 2:38 pm

Blob, what do you make of Bible prophecy?

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#56

Post by Blob » Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:09 pm

Byblos wrote:You're probably closer to being Christian than many Christians.
Thanks, though to clarify I'm not a tee-totaler. I have a glass of wine or a beer 2 or 3 times a week.
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#57

Post by Blob » Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:12 pm

Fortigurn wrote:Blob, what do you make of Bible prophecy?
I'm afraid my answer is rather predictable, Fortigurn.

I find it vague and general and therefore unconvincing.
While in external speech thought is embodied in words, in inner speech words die as they bring forth thought.
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#58

Post by Blob » Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:14 pm

Thinker wrote:I'm done Blob
Okay, well all the best Thinker.
While in external speech thought is embodied in words, in inner speech words die as they bring forth thought.
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#59

Post by BGoodForGoodSake » Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:20 pm

Blob wrote:
Byblos wrote:You're probably closer to being Christian than many Christians.
Thanks, though to clarify I'm not a tee-totaler. I have a glass of wine or a beer 2 or 3 times a week.
Oh you alcoholic!
lol
Everyone has their vice don't they? Although I don't drink much I do smoke on occasion. During the winter time mostly because it does hurt my basketball skills.

But back to the subject, Blob do you think that personality is a manisfestation of the physical body?

In other words if I removed part of your brain, is it conceiveable that your beleif's might change?
It is not length of life, but depth of life. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

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#60

Post by August » Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:27 pm

Blob wrote: It is not an absolute claim because of the distinction between epistemology and ontology. There might be a god (ontological statement), but I don't believe it (epistemological statement). But I would never be so arrogant as to declare my humble opinion to be an absolutely true reality. Therefore my disbelief does not go so far as to exlcude the possibility that deities exist.
I'm afraid you have lost me here. According to Websters Dictionary:
Main Entry: epis·te·mol·o·gy
Pronunciation: i-"pis-t&-'mä-l&-jE
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek epistEmE knowledge, from epistanai to understand, know, from epi- + histanai to cause to stand -- more at STAND
: the study or a theory of the nature and grounds of knowledge

Main Entry: on·tol·o·gy
Pronunciation: än-'tä-l&-jE
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin ontologia, from ont- + -logia -logy
1 : a branch of metaphysics concerned with the nature and relations of being

and then I am aware of the ontological argument for the existence of God, but this is not what we are talking about. There can be absolute epistemological claims too.

Can you maybe explain a bit more how you reconcile your statement with the definition of ontology?

Also, if you are making an epistemological statement about your belief, you must know the underlying premise before you can make the statement. Or do you believe it is possible to believe something without knowing the premise? As I read it, your premise is that there is no God. I'm probably missing something in here, but I cannot for the life of me think of any other premise that would make sense in this context, except maybe the premise that we cannot know know if there is a God.

As for the statement of absolutes, I have argued that your statement:"I have no belief in God." already includes the absolute of your non-belief i.e. is your unbelief 100% or not? I don't see how you can claim that it does not make a knowledge claim, except if you are irrational, which I don't think you are. You also have an implied belief in the law of probability, which is also an absolute.

Do you believe that there is an absolute true reality?
That reminds me, I'm all out of lipgloss!
:shock:
"There is no god" would be an absolutist (ontological) statement. "I have no belief in god" acknowledges there might be a god but I remain unconvinced by claims for his existance (epistemological).
I already asked above, but can you maybe explain how you conclude that ontological=absolutist? The ontological claim for God is the claim that He exists by proof from something other than observation. Is it your position that we can only know the truth through observation?
That is a false dichotomy. My atheism is neither absolute nor an idealogy (being a mere lack of belief about something).

The difference between me and Christians is the second statement in each of the following examples:

Theist: I believe in god. And I know I am right.
Atheist: I lack belief in god. But he might exist.
Ok, I understood a long time ago that you hold the so-called "weak" position on atheism, which you have defined several times on the forum already. Once again we argue about definitions. I have already expressed that I believe that you are making an absolute statement when you profess no belief, so I wil leave it at that. As far as ideology is concerned, there are several definitions, and I would agee that atheism does not fit all of them, it is not a political or economic system, but for that matter, neither is Christianity. If we assume a really weak definition, i.e. manner of thinking, then it applies to both atheism and Christianity.

As for your two examples, I would argue that your statement about the atheist is internally inconsistent. By which criteria do you differentiate between "I lack belief in God" vs "He might exist"? Your first statement is a statement of non-belief which you follow with a statement of belief.
The contradictory and illogical nature of the Christian god; the problem of suffering; the gruesome and incoherent content of the bible; the horrors of Christian nations past; the lack of correlation between "goodness" and "christianity" in practice in the world; Jesus' failure to show up again after 2000 years and counting; the historically specific nature of events and ideas in the bible; the similarity of Jesus and other biblical ideas to prior religions; the vagueness of claimed prophecies; the similarity of Christianity to all other religions many of which claim to be the only true one. And so on.
Almost all of those are value judgements, by what standard of value do you measure?
Acts 17:24-25 (NIV)
"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. [25] And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else."

//www.omnipotentgrace.org
//christianskepticism.blogspot.com

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