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Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
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August
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#31

Post by August » Thu Oct 27, 2005 7:58 pm

Blob wrote: I claim no such thing.
So are you an atheist or not? You wrote to me previously:"An atheist may believe in aliens, ghosts, spirits, the soul - just not gods." You certainly come across more as an agnostic.
Let make a hypothesis: "A green monster lives on the Planet pluto"

Do you believe that?

Do you know for sure?
No and yes. But before you can make that hypothesis sensible, you have to be able to define the terms. Define life, for example. And what is a monster?
Acts 17:24-25 (NIV)
"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. [25] And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else."

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#32

Post by Blob » Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:04 pm

August wrote:So are you an atheist or not? You wrote to me previously:"An atheist may believe in aliens, ghosts, spirits, the soul - just not gods." You certainly come across more as an agnostic.
I am an atheist. I have no belief in god.
Let make a hypothesis: "A green monster lives on the Planet pluto"

Do you believe that?

Do you know for sure?
No and yes.
You know for sure? Have you been there? Are you god?
But before you can make that hypothesis sensible, you have to be able to define the terms. Define life, for example. And what is a monster?
Fair enough. Allow me to make a less vague hypothesis to avoid getting bogged down in definitional debates that detract from my intended point.

"There is a cube of pure gold of length 1cm on the planet Pluto."

Do you believe that?

Do you know for sure?
While in external speech thought is embodied in words, in inner speech words die as they bring forth thought.
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#33

Post by Fortigurn » Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:10 pm

Blob wrote:
Fortigurn wrote:I would love to know how we store our memories, and how our sense of self is preserved throughout this process.

Or perhaps it isn't. Perhaps this is part of the process by which our memories and characters change over the years.
Our memories are like RAM not ROM. They change and then disappear when the power is cut. A corpse has no memories.
I'm well aware that our memories change and then disappear when the power is cut, but this doesn't actually address my question.

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#34

Post by Blob » Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:14 pm

Fortigurn wrote:I'm well aware that our memories change and then disappear when the power is cut, but this doesn't actually address my question.
Apologies, and you are right.

Aren't our brains the exception to the 7 year turnover? I could be mistaken.
While in external speech thought is embodied in words, in inner speech words die as they bring forth thought.
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#35

Post by August » Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:36 pm

Blob wrote: I am an atheist. I have no belief in god.
Why is that not an absolute statement? "No belief" indicates literally zero, which is absolute, just like you have no belief that you are not a woman. Saying that you have no belief in a god is also making a knowledge claim, or how else can you arrive at your belief?

Does it then follow that atheism falls like every other absolutist ideology, or do you define atheism as non-absolute because it suits your purpose to do so?
"There is a cube of pure gold of length 1cm on the planet Pluto."

Do you believe that?

Do you know for sure?
Unsure, because I have no basis by which to confirm whether the hypothesis is true or not. It is possible, yes, but I don't know for sure.
Acts 17:24-25 (NIV)
"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. [25] And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else."

//www.omnipotentgrace.org
//christianskepticism.blogspot.com

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#36

Post by BGoodForGoodSake » Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:50 pm

Kurieuo wrote:
Blob wrote:
August wrote:Is atheism not an absolutist ideology too?
No. "I am an atheist" is a statement of lack of conviction regarding the god claims of others, not a knowledge claim.
I have a lack of conviction regarding the no god claim, so maybe that also isn't a knowledge claim? ;)

Kurieuo
As long as you claim not to know the answers then you are correct.
It is not length of life, but depth of life. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

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#37

Post by AttentionKMartShoppers » Thu Oct 27, 2005 9:02 pm

Blobby's world, how has "Christianity crumbled under scrutiny"
"My actions prove that God takes care of idiots."

He occasionally stumbled over the truth, but hastily picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened.
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An atheist can't find God for the same reason a criminal can't find a police officer.

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#38

Post by Fortigurn » Thu Oct 27, 2005 9:17 pm

Blob wrote:
Fortigurn wrote:I'm well aware that our memories change and then disappear when the power is cut, but this doesn't actually address my question.
Apologies, and you are right.

Aren't our brains the exception to the 7 year turnover? I could be mistaken.
I don't know, but I'm trying to find out. :)

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#39

Post by Blob » Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:28 am

August wrote:
Blob wrote: I am an atheist. I have no belief in god.
Why is that not an absolute statement?
It is not an absolute claim because of the distinction between epistemology and ontology. There might be a god (ontological statement), but I don't believe it (epistemological statement). But I would never be so arrogant as to declare my humble opinion to be an absolutely true reality. Therefore my disbelief does not go so far as to exlcude the possibility that deities exist.
"No belief" indicates literally zero, which is absolute, just like you have no belief that you are not a woman.
That reminds me, I'm all out of lipgloss! ;)

"There is no god" would be an absolutist (ontological) statement. "I have no belief in god" acknowledges there might be a god but I remain unconvinced by claims for his existance (epistemological).
Saying that you have no belief in a god is also making a knowledge claim, or how else can you arrive at your belief?
By not suspending disbelief. I do not believe in alien abduction stories either, although I do not know for sure. But, like god, claims of alien abduction are (fairly) common. So I ask myself: do I believe this? My answer is no, I do not believe it - that is my opinion. But I would never be so arrogant as to declare my humble opinion to be "absolute true reality".
Does it then follow that atheism falls like every other absolutist ideology, or do you define atheism as non-absolute because it suits your purpose to do so?
That is a false dichotomy. My atheism is neither absolute nor an idealogy (being a mere lack of belief about something).

The difference between me and Christians is the second statement in each of the following examples:

Theist: I believe in god. And I know I am right.
Atheist: I lack belief in god. But he might exist.
"There is a cube of pure gold of length 1cm on the planet Pluto."

Do you believe that?

Do you know for sure?
Unsure, because I have no basis by which to confirm whether the hypothesis is true or not. It is possible, yes, but I don't know for sure.
My answers would be no and no. I don't believe there is a cube of pure gold of length 1cm on the planet Pluto for a second. It's an unsubstantiated and arbitrary hypothesis. But I acknowledge my lack of belief is epistemological not ontological - I could be wrong.

In general I choose not to believe unsubstanitated hypotheses, there are just too many going around. Otherwise I'd find myself entertaining various gods, alien abductions, ghosts, asrtology, superstitions, Nessie and on and on. Yet all or some or none of these things could be real, and this acknowledgement of my knowledge limitations is what stops me being absolutist.
While in external speech thought is embodied in words, in inner speech words die as they bring forth thought.
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#40

Post by Blob » Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:43 am

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:Blobby's world, how has "Christianity crumbled under scrutiny"
The contradictory and illogical nature of the Christian god; the problem of suffering; the gruesome and incoherent content of the bible; the horrors of Christian nations past; the lack of correlation between "goodness" and "christianity" in practice in the world; Jesus' failure to show up again after 2000 years and counting; the historically specific nature of events and ideas in the bible; the similarity of Jesus and other biblical ideas to prior religions; the vagueness of claimed prophecies; the similarity of Christianity to all other religions many of which claim to be the only true one. And so on.
While in external speech thought is embodied in words, in inner speech words die as they bring forth thought.
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#41

Post by Believer » Fri Oct 28, 2005 1:35 am

Blob wrote:
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:Blobby's world, how has "Christianity crumbled under scrutiny"
The contradictory and illogical nature of the Christian god; the problem of suffering; the gruesome and incoherent content of the bible; the horrors of Christian nations past; the lack of correlation between "goodness" and "christianity" in practice in the world; Jesus' failure to show up again after 2000 years and counting; the historically specific nature of events and ideas in the bible; the similarity of Jesus and other biblical ideas to prior religions; the vagueness of claimed prophecies; the similarity of Christianity to all other religions many of which claim to be the only true one. And so on.
Blob, my CONCLUSION is that you DO NOT understand Christianity by those claims you make. There is TONS of information on the external evidence of things of the Bible that confirm the internal things. Oh, and I couldn't help to laugh at the fact you claim that Jesus has not returned 2000 years later. Since when ae you authority on when He returns? Do you read scripture that tells you what MUST take place before it happens? I assume not. Your claim could also be said why hasn't Jesus returned 100 years after he ascended.

This is a little off topic, but I do not believe you are an atheist from reading every single one of your posts although you like to keep claiming you are. I think you are STRONGLY misinformed on certain topics. All your "rebuttals" have already been answered logically on tons of Christian websites around the internet, although there may be different views from one another but ultimately are the same thing. You like to shift around a lot and change things, and leave questions we ask unanswered.

I don't expect you to reply to this, but you can, I just don't believe what you think you are, that's all.

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#42

Post by Believer » Fri Oct 28, 2005 1:43 am

Blob wrote:Theist: I believe in god. And I know I am right.
Atheist: I lack belief in god. But he might exist.
Atheism is no belief in God, none. Atheists say they know for a FACT that He doesn't exist, there is no way, none whatsoever (although I am strongly inclined to believe they know God exists, they just have rejected Him so much that they can't see it with their own two eyes). Your atheist statement is more of an agnostic statement. I believe ALL people have the spirit of God in them, it is just the persons decision to let it bear fruit or not, and if they don't, they still have it, but they allow that decision to land their fate. Sorry :cry:.

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#43

Post by Blob » Fri Oct 28, 2005 1:58 am

Thinker wrote:There is TONS of information on the external evidence of things of the Bible that confirm the internal things.
I'd hope so. If every city and character in the bible was total fiction it would be strange.
Oh, and I couldn't help to laugh at the fact you claim that Jesus has not returned 2000 years later. Since when ae you authority on when He returns? Do you read scripture that tells you what MUST take place before it happens?
Matthew 24:34
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Your claim could also be said why hasn't Jesus returned 100 years after he ascended.
I agree.
This is a little off topic, but I do not believe you are an atheist from reading every single one of your posts although you like to keep claiming you are.
I lack belief in god. And that an atheist makes. Call me an agnostic if you wish.
All your "rebuttals" have already been answered logically on tons of Christian websites around the internet, although there may be different views from one another but ultimately are the same thing.
I find the arguments on Christian websites to be flawed and unconvincing. (Don't worry - god will get me in the afterlife for this. You need not feel annoyed by me.)
You like to shift around a lot and change things, and leave questions we ask unanswered.
Please draw my attention to any questions directed personally to me that I have missed on these forums. I will happily address them.
I don't expect you to reply to this, but you can, I just don't believe what you think you are, that's all.
Many atheists are like me. Not believing in god whilst acknowledging the possibility of being wrong.
While in external speech thought is embodied in words, in inner speech words die as they bring forth thought.
- Vygotsky

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#44

Post by Blob » Fri Oct 28, 2005 2:05 am

Thinker wrote:Atheism is no belief in God, none.
Correct.
Atheists say they know for a FACT that He doesn't exist, there is no way, none whatsoever
Some might, but most I know do not. Including myself.
(although I am strongly inclined to believe they know God exists, they just have rejected Him so much that they can't see it with their own two eyes).
That is your incredulity that others can have different opinions to yourself. Don't worry, it is a symptom of youth and I was that way too once. Nothing wrong with it at all.
Your atheist statement is more of an agnostic statement.
Consider the hypothesis: "There is a Christian god".

Do you believe it? Do you know for sure?

Christian: Yes and yes.
Atheist: No and no.
Agnostic: I don't know what I believe and, what's more, it is unknowable.
I believe ALL people have the spirit of God in them, it is just the persons decision to let it bear fruit or not, and if they don't, they still have it, but they allow that decision to land their fate. Sorry :cry:.
It must be horrible to really believe that, Thinker. Like watching people run willingly into a burning building. Sorry for you.
While in external speech thought is embodied in words, in inner speech words die as they bring forth thought.
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#45

Post by Believer » Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:25 am

Blob wrote:
Thinker wrote:There is TONS of information on the external evidence of things of the Bible that confirm the internal things.
I'd hope so. If every city and character in the bible was total fiction it would be strange.
Might I add I did NOT mention ALL cities and characters from the Bible have evidence, there are some parts that are of course symbolic for the reader to understand the underlying message. New evidence comes forth every once in a while.
Blob wrote:
Thinker wrote:Oh, and I couldn't help to laugh at the fact you claim that Jesus has not returned 2000 years later. Since when ae you authority on when He returns? Do you read scripture that tells you what MUST take place before it happens?
Matthew 24:34
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
So that means the earth and the heavens (space) has already passed away, as in being completely destroyed?
Blob wrote:
Thinker wrote:Your claim could also be said why hasn't Jesus returned 100 years after he ascended.
I agree.
Blob wrote:
Thinker wrote:This is a little off topic, but I do not believe you are an atheist from reading every single one of your posts although you like to keep claiming you are.
I lack belief in god. And that an atheist makes. Call me an agnostic if you wish.
I do think you are an agnostic, you just seem to like to claim you are an atheist. You may lack belief, but is that lack complete?
Blob wrote:
Thinker wrote:All your "rebuttals" have already been answered logically on tons of Christian websites around the internet, although there may be different views from one another but ultimately are the same thing.
I find the arguments on Christian websites to be flawed and unconvincing. (Don't worry - god will get me in the afterlife for this. You need not feel annoyed by me.)
They are flawed and unconvincing because you don't want to see the truth in it? I do find them convincing, if they actually are truthful. I have done exhaustive research to help me find more truth to back up my pre-existing belief in God. Ever heard of the rather amusing God gene? Ever read the scripture on how all people know God exists even if they deny it? People have been on the quest of the working on the Bible just as other people have been on the quest for where we came from and how we came to be.
Blob wrote:
Thinker wrote:You like to shift around a lot and change things, and leave questions we ask unanswered.
Please draw my attention to any questions directed personally to me that I have missed on these forums. I will happily address them.
Anyone care to show him many unanswered questions?
Blob wrote:
Thinker wrote:I don't expect you to reply to this, but you can, I just don't believe what you think you are, that's all.
Many atheists are like me. Not believing in god whilst acknowledging the possibility of being wrong.
Atheists claim to know there is no God, that is their belief, it is not saying I don't believe in a God or gods but think that there might be one. They are completely opposite of believers.

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