How the universe came to be?

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
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bizzt
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#61

Post by bizzt » Mon Sep 26, 2005 8:34 am

PHIL121 wrote::bbzzzttt: Stock boy to aisle three...stock boy to aisle three...Help the shopper with the brain disorder...help the shopper with the brain disorder...:bbbbzzztt:
I thought you were talking to me for a Moment there :lol:

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#62

Post by Jbuza » Mon Sep 26, 2005 3:27 pm

SoccerfreakAB2 wrote: Depends on what you count as evidence. There is no evidence for creationism, yet many believe in that.
Just because something comes out of your mouth doesn't make it true. Just because something that comes out of my mouth dosen't make it true, but what you just said is laughable. Of course there is evidence for creation. Don't you have eyes, if so read this.

Hmmmmm. Look at those trees, look at the intricate clockworkings of atomic structure, so similar to the workings of the incomprehendable galexies of space. I wonder how all this came to be, I wonder why I am here. What is the point and purpose of life. I gather this together with my experience and hypothesize that my logic, my reason, my guilt are all explained by the account of history in the oldest book in existence, the most of primary sources ages before Darwin, the Bible. I didn't just get up one day and say I'm stupid and a bigot I think I believe in God. I took my hypothesis and have seen the marvels of God in this world and the otherwise unexplainable events (Dark MAtter LOL) and Been convinced overwhelmingly by this evidence. Evolution is not even comprehendable it has grown into a complexity that has spread disease like. IT is a self prooving nothing, that if you wan't to escape from reality and responsibility struggles to explain life without God. But don't give me this there is no evidence for creation that is such an old and tired line that convinces only the most simple, or the most deluded. The Word of God says that he will send powerful delusions lest they believe.

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Blob
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#63

Post by Blob » Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:54 pm

Of course there is evidence for creation.

... trees ... atomic structure ... galexies of space ... my experience ... my logic, my reason, my guilt
I sincerely cannot see why these things are evidence for deity-creation.

Trees are evidence that trees exist; atomic structure is evidence that atomic theory exists; galaxies are evidence that galaxies exist.

Of course as thinking beings we can agree these things cry out for explanation. But that things exist and we desire to explain them does not make your selected explanation necessarily the valid one.

Further, some over-enthusiastic fans of The Matrix might claim these things do not exist at all! Your comment that your creator-god willfully deludes suggests you seem open to such a possibility too. If delusion rules then surely nothing can be trusted to evidence anything - a tree does not even evidence the existance of itself.
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Deborah
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#64

Post by Deborah » Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:08 pm

Blob wrote:
Of course there is evidence for creation.

... trees ... atomic structure ... galexies of space ... my experience ... my logic, my reason, my guilt
I sincerely cannot see why these things are evidence for deity-creation.

Trees are evidence that trees exist; atomic structure is evidence that atomic theory exists; galaxies are evidence that galaxies exist.

Of course as thinking beings we can agree these things cry out for explanation. But that things exist and we desire to explain them does not make your selected explanation necessarily the valid one.

Further, some over-enthusiastic fans of The Matrix might claim these things do not exist at all! Your comment that your creator-god willfully deludes suggests you seem open to such a possibility too. If delusion rules then surely nothing can be trusted to evidence anything - a tree does not even evidence the existance of itself.
correct but it is evidence of the possability, and for some of us that is all we need.
Church tradition tells us that when John, son of Zebadee and brother of James was an old man, his disciples would carry him to church in their arms.
He would simply say, “Little children, love one another”
After a time his disciples wearied at always hearing these same words and asked “Master why do you always say this?
He replied, “it is the Lords command, and if done, it is enough”

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#65

Post by Believer » Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:30 pm

Okay, so how do all these things begin to exist then is the question? Aliens couldn't have done it because they would have to have a creator, little green super intelligent frogs couldn't have done it because they would have to have a creator. Everything would need to be jump started including all of space. The fact is, the Bible tells us God (a divine being) basically is uncreated, He just is. We don't know how He came to be, and we will most certainly never know until the time comes. We are capped off at human knowledge. There is far to much complex matter everywhere. You turn to faith as the Bible mentions many times. Faith is the hope for the unseen. We are not to lean on our own understanding, because if we do, more and more confusion will build. Yes, space is extremely mysterious, but we need to have faith. The Bible with it's historical people, have been shown to be reliable. So when it says "do not lean on our own understanding" we shouldn't. But scientists don't follow this approach, as all people are curious of everything, and science is the hobby of life. A bunch of people don't take the Word of God seriously, and do their own earthy things. I find it interesting however that there have been many things that agree with the Bible, archeology is one, and so is supernatural events. For example, Blob's mother was hit by a bus (ouch! :shock:), went into a coma, and saw Jesus, yet she was an unbeliever before and now strong in faith. Is this accidental? I have also seen and/or heard Jesus, as well as other things. It is spectacular. And I must admit, it is not the Jesus portrayed in pictures I have seen. As a member on a different forum of believers, there are many stories of actual religious experiences. All of this can't be by chance, but it could, but I HIGHLY doubt it since it matches to what the Bible says. Also the fact that many people, besides NDE's and OBE's have similar experiences with the supernatural.

The point is, it is a matter of faith, a matter of faith in everything including that chair you sit on in front of your computer. A matter of faith that it WILL hold you. Jesus didn't let no one down and still doesn't. Brian "Head" Welch, former member of Korn, a very secular and demonic band, decided that he didn't want to be in a horrible degrading demonic lifestyle such as that band, so he accepted Christ, ever since, he has changed, and you can see that on his website by clicking his name. Very powerful stuff.

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#66

Post by Blob » Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:02 pm

Thinker wrote:We are capped off at human knowledge. There is far to much complex matter everywhere.
I agree. We really know no more about our universe than a goldfish in a bowl knows about its city of residence. This is why I concede that there might be a god - even the one of the bible.

But why does our very human and mutual lack of knowledge make you right and others wrong?
For example, Blob's mother was hit by a bus (ouch! :shock:), went into a coma, and saw Jesus, yet she was an unbeliever before and now strong in faith. ... All of this can't be by chance, but it could, but I HIGHLY doubt it since it matches to what the Bible says.
I'll just state for the record that I am delighted to say she is perfectly fit and well nowadays everyone! :)

I consider beliefs to be cultural. My mother knew what christianity basically was before the accident (as do all British people). Yet I know of no examples of people meeting Jesus in an accident in isolated, traditional cultures that have never heard of the outside world. No "primitive" cultures "discovered" by the world are Christian in any sense to my knowledge.


PS Nice to see you saying a thing is "highly doubtful" rather than "absolutely impossible". You are more reasonable than some give you credit for, Thinker.
While in external speech thought is embodied in words, in inner speech words die as they bring forth thought.
- Vygotsky

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#67

Post by Believer » Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:27 pm

Thank you Blob. Nice to hear your mother is fit as a fiddle 8)! For me, I think of science as our reality, and the Bible as our themepark. Science continues to evolve and change forever, and that is our reality which can be confusing, complex, and debatable, yet the Bible is what we read to just get away from it all and relax, like a themepark. The Bible never changes, the teachings never change, and wisdom is obtained from it. You understand a lot more. When in doubt, read the Bible. It is priceless information and gives you a lot of help in life. One must consider that the Bible was never intended as a science book to explain things in the first place. Genesis is just the backdrop of how life came, and the point is, because of it's complexity, we can never fully know. Now for me, when I read Genesis, I know it will be hard to understand, yet I maintain faith that what is written is how things came to be. My belief in God helps me to understand that whatever way God chose to create, was His doing. Perhaps it is because God is infinitely complex, He gave us what we could understand through Moses in Genesis, yet it is still hard to humanly interpret it. Again, I am just reminded of Proverbs 3:5 which states: "Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;", this is comforting, it just lets us know that we aren't capable of knowing everything there is to know, and that is okay. Proverbs 3 is a great chapter on wisdom, give it a spin :wink:!

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#68

Post by AttentionKMartShoppers » Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:29 pm

But why does our very human and mutual lack of knowledge make you right and others wrong?
I think this question...non sequitor, I don't see how one causes the other.
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#69

Post by Blob » Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:43 pm

Thinker wrote:Nice to hear your mother is fit as a fiddle 8)!
Thanks Thinker. In fact she was so bad the ambulance crew took her for dead when they first saw her in the road. It was a scary time and has been a remarkable recovery.
Proverbs 3 is a great chapter on wisdom, give it a spin :wink:!
I occasionally read the bible online and will have a look.
While in external speech thought is embodied in words, in inner speech words die as they bring forth thought.
- Vygotsky

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#70

Post by Blob » Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:46 pm

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:
But why does our very human and mutual lack of knowledge make you right and others wrong?
I think this question...non sequitor, I don't see how one causes the other.
I'm just saying I don't see how a person can argue "no one knows everything" in support of any particular answer to life's big questions.
While in external speech thought is embodied in words, in inner speech words die as they bring forth thought.
- Vygotsky

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#71

Post by Jbuza » Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:32 am

Blob wrote:

... trees ... atomic structure ... galexies of space ... my experience ... my logic, my reason, my guilt. I sincerely cannot see why these things are evidence for deity-creation. Trees are evidence that trees exist; atomic structure is evidence that atomic theory exists; galaxies are evidence that galaxies exist.

Of course as thinking beings we can agree these things cry out for explanation. But that things exist and we desire to explain them does not make your selected explanation necessarily the valid one.

Further, some over-enthusiastic fans of The Matrix might claim these things do not exist at all! Your comment that your creator-god willfully deludes suggests you seem open to such a possibility too. If delusion rules then surely nothing can be trusted to evidence anything - a tree does not even evidence the existance of itself.
I agree. These things are not proof that creation is true, but I was being told that there is no evidence for creation, and if there was no evidence, for me, than I wouldn't believe. I use them as evidence because they are what convince me, to simply say as Soccerfreak did that their is no evidence is absurd. Aren't the explanations basically theories that you talk about evidenced by observations and reviews of competing theories? I further concede your point that you feel that my particular explanation is not neccessarily the right one. That is why I claim here and elsewhare that Theories are outside the realm of science, they may be derived by a method based on logic and reason, but there is no proof for either. Wouldn't you agree that there is evidence that both evolution and creation could exist? Perhaps not soccerfreak apparently doesn't think creation explains may afore mentioned evidence. While evolution is an adequate explanation for material things it fails, in my opinion to account for the logic and reason that are the foundations of science. But I wouldn't be so absurd as to say there is no evidence for it, come on the fact that the world exists is evidence for any theory of origins.

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#72

Post by bizzt » Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:54 am

Blob wrote:
Thinker wrote:We are capped off at human knowledge. There is far to much complex matter everywhere.
I agree. We really know no more about our universe than a goldfish in a bowl knows about its city of residence. This is why I concede that there might be a god - even the one of the bible.

But why does our very human and mutual lack of knowledge make you right and others wrong?
For example, Blob's mother was hit by a bus (ouch! :shock:), went into a coma, and saw Jesus, yet she was an unbeliever before and now strong in faith. ... All of this can't be by chance, but it could, but I HIGHLY doubt it since it matches to what the Bible says.
I'll just state for the record that I am delighted to say she is perfectly fit and well nowadays everyone! :)

I consider beliefs to be cultural. My mother knew what christianity basically was before the accident (as do all British people). Yet I know of no examples of people meeting Jesus in an accident in isolated, traditional cultures that have never heard of the outside world. No "primitive" cultures "discovered" by the world are Christian in any sense to my knowledge.


PS Nice to see you saying a thing is "highly doubtful" rather than "absolutely impossible". You are more reasonable than some give you credit for, Thinker.
True Christianity was not around until Jesus :wink: :D

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#73

Post by BGoodForGoodSake » Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:59 am

Thinker wrote:Thank you Blob. Nice to hear your mother is fit as a fiddle 8)! For me, I think of science as our reality, and the Bible as our themepark. Science continues to evolve and change forever, and that is our reality which can be confusing, complex, and debatable, yet the Bible is what we read to just get away from it all and relax, like a themepark. The Bible never changes, the teachings never change, and wisdom is obtained from it. You understand a lot more. When in doubt, read the Bible. It is priceless information and gives you a lot of help in life. One must consider that the Bible was never intended as a science book to explain things in the first place. Genesis is just the backdrop of how life came, and the point is, because of it's complexity, we can never fully know. Now for me, when I read Genesis, I know it will be hard to understand, yet I maintain faith that what is written is how things came to be. My belief in God helps me to understand that whatever way God chose to create, was His doing. Perhaps it is because God is infinitely complex, He gave us what we could understand through Moses in Genesis, yet it is still hard to humanly interpret it. Again, I am just reminded of Proverbs 3:5 which states: "Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;", this is comforting, it just lets us know that we aren't capable of knowing everything there is to know, and that is okay. Proverbs 3 is a great chapter on wisdom, give it a spin :wink:!
Very nice, great post Thinker.
I think this pretty much ends this argument.
It is not length of life, but depth of life. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

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#74

Post by bizzt » Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:01 am

BGoodForGoodSake wrote:
Thinker wrote:Thank you Blob. Nice to hear your mother is fit as a fiddle 8)! For me, I think of science as our reality, and the Bible as our themepark. Science continues to evolve and change forever, and that is our reality which can be confusing, complex, and debatable, yet the Bible is what we read to just get away from it all and relax, like a themepark. The Bible never changes, the teachings never change, and wisdom is obtained from it. You understand a lot more. When in doubt, read the Bible. It is priceless information and gives you a lot of help in life. One must consider that the Bible was never intended as a science book to explain things in the first place. Genesis is just the backdrop of how life came, and the point is, because of it's complexity, we can never fully know. Now for me, when I read Genesis, I know it will be hard to understand, yet I maintain faith that what is written is how things came to be. My belief in God helps me to understand that whatever way God chose to create, was His doing. Perhaps it is because God is infinitely complex, He gave us what we could understand through Moses in Genesis, yet it is still hard to humanly interpret it. Again, I am just reminded of Proverbs 3:5 which states: "Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;", this is comforting, it just lets us know that we aren't capable of knowing everything there is to know, and that is okay. Proverbs 3 is a great chapter on wisdom, give it a spin :wink:!
Very nice, great post Thinker.
I think this pretty much ends this argument.
Yes I agree Fully!

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#75

Post by AttentionKMartShoppers » Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:53 am

Blob wrote:
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:
But why does our very human and mutual lack of knowledge make you right and others wrong?
I think this question...non sequitor, I don't see how one causes the other.
I'm just saying I don't see how a person can argue "no one knows everything" in support of any particular answer to life's big questions.
I don't see how see why someone would argue using that statement...
"My actions prove that God takes care of idiots."

He occasionally stumbled over the truth, but hastily picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened.
- On Stanley Baldwin

-Winston Churchill

An atheist can't find God for the same reason a criminal can't find a police officer.

You need to start asking out girls so that you can get used to the rejections.
-Anonymous

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