The Daily Show With Jon Stewart - Evolution Schmevolution

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.

What Is The Best Supporting Theory After Examining All The Evidence?

Darwinian Evolution/Neo-Darwinian Evolution
4
44%
Theistic Evolution
1
11%
Creationism
0
No votes
Intelligent Design
4
44%
 
Total votes: 9

User avatar
sweden78
Acquainted Member
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:27 am
Christian: No
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#31

Post by sweden78 » Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:22 am

that show was great! :lol:

User avatar
bizzt
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1654
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:11 pm
Christian: No
Location: Calgary
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#32

Post by bizzt » Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:27 am

BGoodForGoodSake wrote: Again wrong there is fossil evidence going back further than the Cambrian. Look up Vendian.
But still you can not take away from the Fact that 53 million years ago or whatever a Mass amount of Species came into Existance out of BASICALLY no where.

User avatar
AttentionKMartShoppers
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2163
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:37 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Location: Austin, Texas
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time
Contact:

#33

Post by AttentionKMartShoppers » Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:30 am

BGoodForGoodSake wrote:
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:This is pointless. You don't seem to get what I'm trying you to understand..... Origins of life does have something to do with evolution, there aren't any fossils leading up to those in the fossil record,
No, origin of life is not evolution. Origin of life is another theory.
and 54 million years may be a long time to you, but if you want evolution of extremely varied typed of life, it's extremely short. And, you're right, evolution isn't based on one man, it's based on a religion-atheism.
Read my previous post there is no extreme varied types of life just new morphologies based on new niches in the ecosystem.
And under what authority is 54 million years short. And are you denying that organisms are changing over time?
The Cambrian explosion occurred over 53 million years. Not exactly a short period. Also this period was charachterized by rapid diversification not rapid increase in complexity.
Rapid diversification from NOTHING though...lol-all you get before the Cambrian is....you see all these things popping up from no previous organism.
Again wrong there is fossil evidence going back further than the Cambrian. Look up Vendian.
I didn't say origin of life=evolution. I said that evolution rests on the extraordinary claim that life comes from non-life...so if you show that the assumption of evolution is wrong, then evolution is also finished.

Yes, there are some fossils before the Cambrian Explosion. The fossil in the Cambrian explosion pop up with unique body parts-with no sign of any ancestry. There are no transitions before pre-Cambrian life, and Cambrian life. You have some pre-Cambrian fossils...some worms, multi-cellular bacteria I believe...but no ancestors of anything found in the Cambrian Explosion-you have a huge infusion of information, but not enough time for it to evolve. Darwininian evolution, as well as punctuated evolution, don't fit-you have a huge leap that you cannot explain naturalistically.
"My actions prove that God takes care of idiots."

He occasionally stumbled over the truth, but hastily picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened.
- On Stanley Baldwin

-Winston Churchill

An atheist can't find God for the same reason a criminal can't find a police officer.

You need to start asking out girls so that you can get used to the rejections.
-Anonymous

User avatar
BGoodForGoodSake
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2125
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:44 am
Christian: No
Location: Washington D.C.
Has liked: 28 times
Been liked: 12 times

#34

Post by BGoodForGoodSake » Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:34 am

bizzt wrote:
BGoodForGoodSake wrote: Again wrong there is fossil evidence going back further than the Cambrian. Look up Vendian.
But still you can not take away from the Fact that 53 million years ago or whatever a Mass amount of Species came into Existance out of BASICALLY no where.
Well not exactly, in the Cambrian something allowed already existing organisms to suddenly become larger and secrete hard remains.

So, not nowhere, many of the body types were already in existance in the Vendian and pre-Cambrian period.

Predation probably began here as well. Many scientists beleive that has something to do with the sudden speciation. This is a theory, the fact is that there was a morphological radiation.

In other words perhaps, before there were only natural boundaries which isolated organisms and caused speciation. With the onset of predation additional restrictions were set on organisms and the evolutionary arms race began.
Last edited by BGoodForGoodSake on Mon Sep 19, 2005 1:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
It is not length of life, but depth of life. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

User avatar
AttentionKMartShoppers
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2163
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:37 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Location: Austin, Texas
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time
Contact:

#35

Post by AttentionKMartShoppers » Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:37 am

Mutation rates don't allow for the Cambrian explosion though....even under optomistic numbers, mathematically speaking, evolution being the explanation for the Cambrian explosion is impossible.
"My actions prove that God takes care of idiots."

He occasionally stumbled over the truth, but hastily picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened.
- On Stanley Baldwin

-Winston Churchill

An atheist can't find God for the same reason a criminal can't find a police officer.

You need to start asking out girls so that you can get used to the rejections.
-Anonymous

User avatar
BGoodForGoodSake
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2125
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:44 am
Christian: No
Location: Washington D.C.
Has liked: 28 times
Been liked: 12 times

#36

Post by BGoodForGoodSake » Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:39 am

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:I didn't say origin of life=evolution. I said that evolution rests on the extraordinary claim that life comes from non-life...so if you show that the assumption of evolution is wrong, then evolution is also finished.
Nowhere is this assumption made. Find this for me on any respectable up-to-date scientific site, journal, or textbook. Evolution is based on the observation that life only comes from life. Period, end of argument.
Yes, there are some fossils before the Cambrian Explosion. The fossil in the Cambrian explosion pop up with unique body parts-with no sign of any ancestry. There are no transitions before pre-Cambrian life, and Cambrian life. You have some pre-Cambrian fossils...some worms, multi-cellular bacteria I believe...but no ancestors of anything found in the Cambrian Explosion-you have a huge infusion of information, but not enough time for it to evolve. Darwininian evolution, as well as punctuated evolution, don't fit-you have a huge leap that you cannot explain naturalistically.
Based on what, is it a huge leap? What is the counter explanation? You may disagree with theories, but you cannot deny the physical facts. Evolution has occured, no matter the explanation. Lets do a little bit of chemistry. What is your understanding of genetics and how it interacts with protien formation to create "body parts"?
It is not length of life, but depth of life. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

User avatar
AttentionKMartShoppers
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2163
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:37 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Location: Austin, Texas
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time
Contact:

#37

Post by AttentionKMartShoppers » Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:54 am

Microevolution has been proved. I wish teachers would stop brainwashing kids into thinking "evolution has been proven, evolution has been proven"

How can you not understand that evolution is based on the assumption that life came from non-life? My goodness, it's not rocket science. Why do you think zealot atheists are coming up with crazier and crazier ideas, such as aliens brought life to earth, or that the earth was seeded with life, and such blatant nonsense? It's because someone realizes that life coming from non-life is one of evolution's many Achilles' heels.
"My actions prove that God takes care of idiots."

He occasionally stumbled over the truth, but hastily picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened.
- On Stanley Baldwin

-Winston Churchill

An atheist can't find God for the same reason a criminal can't find a police officer.

You need to start asking out girls so that you can get used to the rejections.
-Anonymous

User avatar
sweden78
Acquainted Member
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:27 am
Christian: No
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#38

Post by sweden78 » Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:57 am

it´s funny how you have all the answers for how the earth was created when the scientists don´t.. you guys must be real geniuses! what education do you have anyway? and how old are you?

User avatar
BGoodForGoodSake
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2125
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:44 am
Christian: No
Location: Washington D.C.
Has liked: 28 times
Been liked: 12 times

#39

Post by BGoodForGoodSake » Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:57 am

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:Mutation rates don't allow for the Cambrian explosion though....even under optomistic numbers, mathematically speaking, evolution being the explanation for the Cambrian explosion is impossible.
Lets say your right, mutation rates don't account for it. Did evolution not occur?

But you're not right. Show me the mathematics, I know them, apparently you do not. What are mutation rates, and what does it mean? Please explain.

In addition ,you don't necessarily need mutation to create new phenotypes. Environmental pressures, predation if non-existant before will force a population with many phenotypes to quickly adapt. Each isolated population will be faced with different pressures creating a different phenotype outcome. Even under the same pressure each isolated population will react differently. Continued isolation could lead to speciation.

This is as can be seen from dog and cattle breeding.
Of course this is but a theory. But, it is a fact that speciation occured. And if not what did happen? What do you make of the evidence?
It is not length of life, but depth of life. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

User avatar
BGoodForGoodSake
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2125
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:44 am
Christian: No
Location: Washington D.C.
Has liked: 28 times
Been liked: 12 times

#40

Post by BGoodForGoodSake » Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:01 am

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:Microevolution has been proved. I wish teachers would stop brainwashing kids into thinking "evolution has been proven, evolution has been proven"

How can you not understand that evolution is based on the assumption that life came from non-life? My goodness, it's not rocket science.
This is incorrect, explain to me why the assumption needs to be made, don't just state it. Yes there is a related theory on the origins of life. Related because they both regard early life. But that is not evolution.
Why do you think zealot atheists are coming up with crazier and crazier ideas, such as aliens brought life to earth, or that the earth was seeded with life, and such blatant nonsense? It's because someone realizes that life coming from non-life is one of evolution's many Achilles' heels.
No, it's not because people are threatened, it is because some individuals wish to explore the origins of life. Because it is plain to see that evolution cannot explain this.

Refer to the what the poop thread you created if you want to discuss the origins of life theories.
Last edited by BGoodForGoodSake on Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
It is not length of life, but depth of life. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

User avatar
AttentionKMartShoppers
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2163
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:37 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Location: Austin, Texas
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time
Contact:

#41

Post by AttentionKMartShoppers » Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:05 am

Cattle and dog breeding? Non sequitor-that's controlled by an intelligent being, man...but what you're talking about was unguided.

And if you really can't see the relationiship between origin of life and evolution......wow..
"My actions prove that God takes care of idiots."

He occasionally stumbled over the truth, but hastily picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened.
- On Stanley Baldwin

-Winston Churchill

An atheist can't find God for the same reason a criminal can't find a police officer.

You need to start asking out girls so that you can get used to the rejections.
-Anonymous

User avatar
BGoodForGoodSake
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2125
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:44 am
Christian: No
Location: Washington D.C.
Has liked: 28 times
Been liked: 12 times

#42

Post by BGoodForGoodSake » Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:09 am

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:Cattle and dog breeding? Non sequitor-that's controlled by an intelligent being, man...but what you're talking about was unguided.

And if you really can't see the relationiship between origin of life and evolution......wow..
Ok heres an example, imagine an island full of creatures which never had to deal with packs of carnivores like wolves. Do you think introducing wolves to this island will have an effect on the populations?

I do see a relationship, I see how evolution leaves open the origins of life. So evolution does not deal with origins of life. If it does please explain how it does.
Last edited by BGoodForGoodSake on Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
It is not length of life, but depth of life. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

User avatar
Believer
Advanced Senior Member
Posts: 780
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 7:44 pm
Christian: No
Location: Oregon
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#43

Post by Believer » Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:10 am

Life doesn't come from non-life or nothingness. The quantum theory of "particles" that pop into reality from nothing and then back out into nothing STILL has to have design, the "particles" are composed of elements. Before the universe, there was nothing, a blank slate, so how do these "particles" exist? Even before nothing there still was nothing, it would continue for infinity.

User avatar
BGoodForGoodSake
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2125
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:44 am
Christian: No
Location: Washington D.C.
Has liked: 28 times
Been liked: 12 times

#44

Post by BGoodForGoodSake » Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:13 am

Thinker wrote:Life doesn't come from non-life or nothingness. The quantum theory of "particles" that pop into reality from nothing and then back out into nothing STILL has to have design, the "particles" are composed of elements. Before the universe, there was nothing, a blank slate, so how do these "particles" exist? Even before nothing there still was nothing, it would continue for infinity.
These are great questions, and point out that science not only does'nt have all of the answers but has limitations in its ability to explain things. It is only a tool to help men describe the natural world.
It is not length of life, but depth of life. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

User avatar
AttentionKMartShoppers
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2163
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:37 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Location: Austin, Texas
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time
Contact:

#45

Post by AttentionKMartShoppers » Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:40 am

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/bigbang.html

The highlights:

This is the blink of an eye I was talking about-
The standard evolutionary story describes an earth bombarded by meteorites from its origin 4.5 billion years ago until almost 3.8 billion years ago. Within only 100 million years the first life evolved following the cessation of this celestial onslaught. This, in and of itself, is a huge evolutionary hurdle without explanation. For the next 3 billion years, little else but single- celled life forms ruled the planet. Then suddenly, in the Cambrian geological period, the earth is populated with a huge diversity of complex multicellular life forms. This has always looked suspiciously like some form of creation event, and paleontologists frequently seemed rather embarrassed by the reality of the Cambrian Explosion.
Even a smaller timeframe...
Yet, here is the real puzzle of the Cambrian Explosion for the theory of evolution. All the known phyla, except one, along with the oddities with which I began this discussion, first appear in the Cambrian period. There are no ancestors. There are no intermediates. Fossil experts used to think that the Cambrian lasted 75 million years. But even that seemed to be a pretty short time for all this evolutionary change. Eventually the Cambrian was shortened to only 30 million years. And if that wasn't bad enough, the time frame of the real work of bringing all these different creatures into existence was limited to the first five to ten million years of the Cambrian. This is extraordinarily fast! Harvard's Stephen Jay Gould says, "Fast is now a lot faster than we thought, and that is extraordinarily interesting." What an understatement! "Extraordinarily impossible" might be a better phrase!
In the Time magazine article (p. 70), paleontologist Samuel Bowring says, "We now know how fast fast is. And what I like to ask my biologist friends is, How fast can evolution get before you start feeling uncomfortable?"
OH and here's the pain...and there are fish!-
This necessity of gradualism explains the difficulty evolutionists have concerning the Cambrian explosion or Evolution's Big Bang, as Time magazine called it. How could animals as diverse as arthropods, molluscs, jellyfish, and even primitive vertebrates all appear within a time span of only 5-10 million years with no ancestors and no intermediates? Evolution just doesn't work this way. Fossil experts and biologists are only beginning to wrestle with this thorny dilemma. Some think that genes which control the process of development from a fertilized egg to an adult, the so- called Hox genes, may have reached a critical mass which led to an explosion of complexity. Some of the simplest multi-celled organisms like the jellyfish only have three Hox genes, while insects have eight, and some not-quite-vertebrates have ten. Critical mass may be a real phenomena in physics, but biological processes rarely if ever work that way. Besides, that doesn't solve the important riddle of where the first Hox gene came from in the first place. Genetic information does not just spontaneously arise from random DNA sequences.
Before addressing this question, let's review our discussion thus far. Evolution's Big Bang, the Cambrian explosion of life that supposedly occurred over 500 million years ago, continues to puzzle evolutionists. Recent discoveries have narrowed the time frame from over 70 million years to less than 10 million years. This has only complicated their dilemma because so many different creatures appear in the Cambrian with no ancestors or intermediates. The major evolutionary innovations represented in the Cambrian would ordinarily require at least tens of millions of years to accomplish. Some might even suggest over 100 million years would be required. The differences between the creatures that suddenly appear in the Cambrian are enormous. In fact these differences are so large many of these animals are one of a kind. Nothing like them existed before and nothing like them has ever appeared again.
In fact, a question that is just as perplexing as how this explosion of diversity could occur so fast, is why hasn't such drastic change ever happened in the 500 million years since? The same basic body plans that arose in the Cambrian remain surprisingly constant ever since. Apparently, the most significant biological changes in the history of the earth occurred in less than ten million years, and for 500 million years afterward, this level of change never happened again. Why not? This may seem like a simple question, but it is far more complicated than it appears.
If that doesn't defend my case, well, nothing will...(that is most of the essay...LOL)
"My actions prove that God takes care of idiots."

He occasionally stumbled over the truth, but hastily picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened.
- On Stanley Baldwin

-Winston Churchill

An atheist can't find God for the same reason a criminal can't find a police officer.

You need to start asking out girls so that you can get used to the rejections.
-Anonymous

Post Reply