Just a picture...

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AttentionKMartShoppers
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Just a picture...

#1

Post by AttentionKMartShoppers » Fri Sep 16, 2005 4:02 pm

The picture says it all
"My actions prove that God takes care of idiots."

He occasionally stumbled over the truth, but hastily picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened.
- On Stanley Baldwin

-Winston Churchill

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Re: Just a picture...

#2

Post by BGoodForGoodSake » Sat Sep 17, 2005 12:32 am

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:The picture says it all
Jihad means a struggle, usually with sin, or inner perfection.
This image is misinformed and you are spreading misinformation and hate. Not at all funny. You are doing a diservice to the Christians and others on this board.
It is not length of life, but depth of life. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

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#3

Post by AttentionKMartShoppers » Sat Sep 17, 2005 10:58 am

Uh, you are misinformed...and I'm not spreading hate. I dont' hate Muslims for it, I think they're just in need of serious help
"My actions prove that God takes care of idiots."

He occasionally stumbled over the truth, but hastily picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened.
- On Stanley Baldwin

-Winston Churchill

An atheist can't find God for the same reason a criminal can't find a police officer.

You need to start asking out girls so that you can get used to the rejections.
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Re: Just a picture...

#4

Post by Kurieuo » Sat Sep 17, 2005 6:32 pm

BGoodForGoodSake wrote:
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:The picture says it all
Jihad means a struggle, usually with sin, or inner perfection.
This image is misinformed and you are spreading misinformation and hate.
I'm not sure if KMart is misinformed, although whether the image is tactful is another question. I think one is entitled to call a duck a duck when they see one, and having in the past read Suras supporting AMart's portrayal and having an mild understanding of Islam's history, I've come to the conclusion that those who think Islam is a religion of peace are likely being inconsistent with Islamic foundations. So it could be KMart is portraying truth rather than hate, but then this is perhaps something that needs to be debated.

I'm really no expert to say much more, but I do know Christian2 appears to have a great deal of knowledge having studied Islam and I believe been a Muslim? Perhaps he could shed some further light on this issue of whether one is only advocating hate when they associate Islam with violence, or whether there is truth to such portrayals?

Kurieuo
Last edited by Kurieuo on Sat Sep 17, 2005 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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#5

Post by AttentionKMartShoppers » Sat Sep 17, 2005 6:40 pm

Well, until he arrives on the scene of the accident...there are two forms of jihad-the inner jihad, and the outer jihad...the inner jihad you're conquering sin like bgood says...the outer jihad, you're conquering the infidels :-p
"My actions prove that God takes care of idiots."

He occasionally stumbled over the truth, but hastily picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened.
- On Stanley Baldwin

-Winston Churchill

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You need to start asking out girls so that you can get used to the rejections.
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#6

Post by Judah » Mon Sep 19, 2005 1:47 am

I remember Christian2 saying on another thread here that there are many Muslims who prefer to live peaceful lives and not get caught up in the call for physical jihad. They are more interested in enjoying their families and work and are just as horrified by acts of terrorism as are the rest of us.

Many of these particular Muslims are Islamic by culture rather than by religion, in a way just as we have "nominal Christians" in our society who will occasionally go to church or put a Christian denomination down on a census form, but are not convinced believers at all. Some of them may not be very well versed in the tenets of their own faith, just as many folks in so-called Christian countries are not Biblically literate. These ones are quite likely to claim that their religion is a peaceful one, and to them... well, so it is.

But there are other Muslims who are not of that kind, and they are living peacefully by "laying (and lying!) in wait" until the time is ripe for the call to jihad to have them act against those who are not followers of the more militant form of Islam. These ones may put considerable pressure on the more peaceful Muslims to join them in physical jihad, and they are indeed the scary ones which are full of hate for "infidels". They will kill their own Muslim brothers who resist the call for jihad, calling them apostates.

The correct interpretation of the Qu'ran involves the principle of abrogation whereby earlier surahs are cancelled out by later ones that contradict, and it is the later ones that contain the violence and hatred to all non-Muslims (and apostates) and advocate world dominance with total submission to Allah and Islam. These surahs do indeed say "Kill the Christians! Kill the Jews!"
The peaceful Muslims seem to be living by the earlier surahs of the Mecca period, whereas the more militant ones are living by the later surahs of the Medina period, their interpretation of the Qu'ran using the principle of abrogation.

So there you have an explanation for the rather mixed picture that you see among Muslims. Some are peaceful types, others most definitely are not. The Qu'ran, correctly interpreted, makes Islam a violent and hateful religion that is intent on bringing the whole world into submission to Allah, and they will do this "by the sword" as required.

Does this picture misinform? No, I don't believe that it does.
But I do wonder about the context in which it was supposed to be used. It may do little towards converting Muslims to Christianity, and is likely just to antagonize them.
So how useful is it? Well, I'm not sure it really has much use at all.

BGood, jihad does mean the internal struggle with sin, but it also means something far worse than that and we are wise to keep ourselves properly informed about this major world religion. It is not spreading hatred to unmask Islam for exactly what it is, but it may be wise to think first about the use of such a picture and take care what you do with it.

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#7

Post by Christian2 » Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:48 am

Hi folks,

I am in the process of gathering up some info on Jihad for you. There is the Lessor and the Greater. The Greater being an internal struggle for each Muslim to strive for spiritual growth. The Lessor is what is known as Holy War.

A few years ago a Muslim gave me an article to read. His purpose was to show me how perfectly preserved the Qur'an is, but something on another page caught my eye. It was this clip on Jihad:

Source: http://members.tripod.com/beconvinced/AUTHQURAN.htm

This is not a confrontation of civilizations, nor is it a clash of cultures. Islam does not oppose the West, or anyone else, because of revenge over past hostilities, out of a desire to restore injured pride or because of the desire to amass their wealth and lands. The fight is for one purpose only and that is to establish the religion of Islam in its totality, as the Prophet, peace be upon him, explained when a man came to him and asked: "One of us fights for booty, another for his tribe and another to be known as brave, which one is fighting jihad?" The Prophet, peace be upon him, replied: "None of them. Only the one who fights to make Allah's Word the highest is fighting jihad." It is clear to any believer acquainted with Allah's Book (i.e. the Qur'an) and His Prophet's Sunnah that jihad (i.e. struggling to the utmost of ones ability) is an intrinsic part of faith, and a duty among the duties in Islam. The Prophet, peace be upon him, said, as reported by Tariq bin Shihab: "He who amongst you sees something evil should change it with his hand; and if he is unable he should change it with his tongue; and if he is unable to do that he should at least hate it in his heart, and that is the weakest form of faith" (Reported in Saheeh Muslim, No. 79).

Jihad has three characteristics. The first form is jihad of the heart, or jihad of the self. This is the internal struggle to acquire the correct creed, and to remove from one's self all doubts and misconceptions concerning this creed, and also the commands and prohibitions enjoined on the believer. It further more encompasses the purifying of the soul from base desires and acquiring noble qualities. The second level is the jihad of the tongue. This is the struggle against evil, and wrong beliefs and actions through preaching and writing books and the like. This form of jihad is characterized by its use against the deviants from among the Muslims, but also extends to the unbelievers. The final form of jihad is that of the hand, or sword, where one expends life and property. It is characterized by its use against unbelievers, but can also be used against deviant groups under the authority of the Muslim ruler. This jihad of the hand, often termed "Holy War", is further compartmentalized into three stages. The first is that of it being forbidden, as it was in the early days of Muhammad's prophethood. If the Muslims are weak, and fighting is liable to cause only harm and no benefit, then they should desist. Such is the case of those dwelling in non-Muslim lands. The second stage is that of self-defense, or restricting the fight to "those who fight you" (2:190), and releasing the lands of the Muslims from the control of their enemies. This is the condition of the Muslims today. The final stage is that of fighting in order to open the path for establishing Allah's rule in the lands of the unbelievers, as was done by the Prophet's companions and the Muslim rulers after them. "And why should you not fight in the cause of Allah when there are weak and oppressed, old men, women and children whose cry is 'Oh Lord save us from those who oppress, and send to one who will aid and send to us one who will help!'" (Surah an-Nisa' 4:75). Thus one the Prophet's companions, Rab'ia ibn Amer, went to meet Rostrum, the famous Persian general, at his request and the general offered camels, and women and asked them to return to the desert. Rab'ia refused, and Rostrum asked him why then were they fighting. Rab'ia replied: "We have come to take mankind from the darkness to the light and from the worship of the false gods to the worship of Allah, from the narrowness of this world the wide expanse of this world and the next, and from the injustices of man made religions to the justice of Islam."

So this Jihad is the peak of the matter and fulfilling it is part of fulfilling the covenant with Allah, and abandoning it is the cause of humiliation and defeat for the Muslims. As Allah said: "If you march not forth, He will punish you with a painful torment and will replace you by another people and you cannot harm Him at all, and Allah is able to do all things" (Surah at-Tawbah 9:39) and the saying of the Prophet, peace be upon him,: "When you deal in “al-ainiya” (i.e. become complacent and satisfied with a domestic life) and hang on to the cows tails, and abandon jihad, then Allah will permit your humiliation at the hands of your enemies and will not lift it from you until you return to your religion." So today we find Muslims leading a life as if they had no prophet, nor belief in any Divine Message or Divine Revelation, nor expectation of any reckoning, nor is fear of the hereafter. They resemble the pre-Islamic nations, against whom they used to fight in the past. So they have turned on their heels as apostates from Islam and have imitated the ignorant nations in their civilization, in their social affairs, in their political systems, in their character and in the pleasures of their lives. So Allah hated them and forsook them, as He promised He would. He had warned them of this clearly in His Book, and on the tongue of His Messenger Muhammad, peace be upon him,: "Soon the nations will gather to take from you the same way you invite others to share from a feast!" A person asked the Prophet, peace be upon him,: “Is that because we are small in our numbers?" The Prophet, peace be upon him, answered: “No! You will be many, like the foam on the sea, but you will be rubbish, like the rubbish carried down by the flood water. And certainly Allah will remove from the breasts of your enemies the fear of you and into your breasts He will cast enervation." A person asked: “What is enervation?" The Prophet, peace be upon him, replied: "It is love of life and fear of death." This has come true exactly, as the Prophet, peace be upon him, predicted, and if there is a “Revival of Islam”, then that is because anyone with ears and eyes can see how the Muslims are humiliated - their lands a feast for their enemies, ruled by laws and ways nothing to do with that which Allah has revealed. The solution to these problems has been given by the Prophet, peace be upon him, himself one thousand four hundred years ago: "Return to your religion", enjoin what Allah has enjoined and forbid what He has forbidden, prefer the next life to this, and for the Muslims to once again struggle with their lives and properties to bring themselves and others out of the oppression of man made ways of life to the justice of that which has been revealed by the All-knowing Creator!

So the matter of conflict between Islam and the West is not at all as the survey suggests, i.e. factors such as geography, past enmities, culture clash and so on; nor is the Islamic Revival some search for identity, coupled with some sort of inferiority complex. To the believer the conflict is one of truth against falsehood, justice against oppression, the way to Paradise against the way to Hellfire, the perfection of Allah's revealed way against the misguidance of human ignorance. Furthermore, all of this should make it clear that there is indeed an "insuperable reason why Muslims and Westerners cannot live peaceably with each other" (p.5 c. 2). Mr. Beedham's survey, for all its optimism, has made an oft-repeated mistake. He has judged the Muslims by his own standards, believing they want, as do the West, to reach some sort of compromise. The truth is that Islam teaches its followers to seek death on the battle field, that dying whilst fighting jihad is one of the surest ways to paradise and Allah's good pleasure. It is as Khalid bin Waleed, whom the Prophet, peace be upon him, called the 'Sword of Allah' and hero of every good Muslim child, said in response to a Roman letter inviting him to surrender: “We have with us people who love death as you love wine.” It was Ronald Reagan who quite rightly pointed out that: “How do you expect to defeat a people who believe that when you kill them they go to a paradise filled with beautiful virgins and rivers of wine?” Whether the believer sees the result in his or her life time is irrelevant, for their duty is to carry on the jihad, and so be saved from Allah's wrath in this life and the next.

The conflict will be there as long as there are those who stubbornly resist submission to their Lord and Creator. If all of this seems intransigent and fundamentalist that's because IT IS. With Islam you are dealing with absolutes. This conflict, however, may not necessarily be a violent one, in the sense of war, causing loss of life, limb and property. Islam does not necessarily demand a change through violence if the end can be effectively achieved through other means. So perhaps there is cause for the surveys optimism, but the solution can only lie in a very different direction from what it suggests! Allah has promised in His Book that if the Muslims fail to keep their covenant, and fight against the foolish disbelief, then He will destroy them and "replace them with a people who will love Him, and He will love them, and they will be hard against the forces of disbelief and kind to the believers, and unafraid of those who find fault" (Surah al-Ma'idah 5:54). And Allah speaks the truth, and His promise comes true, and this has proven so in the past, as when the Muslims left their religion, fought amongst each other, and reveled in the delights of worldly life . . . then the calamity of the Tartars feel upon them, destroying utterly the Muslim lands, and its capital Baghdad. Yet from these same conquerors, Allah made them the defenders and upholders of Islam, and from them to the Turks, who in their turn lapsed, and so Allah destroyed them at the hands of the Europeans. Thus is situation in which Muslims find themselves today. It is quite possible that history will repeat itself, and that Islam will be given its strength again through those who had formally tried to destroy it.

This one I clipped from a discussion board. It is a Muslim explaining Jihad: (9/21 I have deleted the post from the discussion board because I just found out that the poster was not a Muslim, but someone pretending to be a Muslim. He was quite good, even including Arabic script. I was fooled and so were others. Anyway I am embarrassed and have learned a lesson. I am in the habit of checking all my sources before I post. This one got past me. I apologize to everyone.)

There will be more to come. Chew on this for a while. Also, I am trying to get a definition of Jihad from my Muslim friend of almost 4 years.

Shalom
Last edited by Christian2 on Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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#8

Post by AttentionKMartShoppers » Mon Sep 19, 2005 3:20 pm

I rest my case
"My actions prove that God takes care of idiots."

He occasionally stumbled over the truth, but hastily picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened.
- On Stanley Baldwin

-Winston Churchill

An atheist can't find God for the same reason a criminal can't find a police officer.

You need to start asking out girls so that you can get used to the rejections.
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#9

Post by Christian2 » Tue Sep 20, 2005 5:50 am

More on Jihad

What is Jihad from Daniel Pipes
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/990

Check out the responses to Pipes' article

History of Jihad
http://www.historyofjihad.com

Jihad explained from a couple of Muslim sites
http://www.themodernreligion.com/jihad.html
http://www.submission.org/muhammed/jihad.html

Jihad explained by my Muslim friend:

I asked him some questions are here are his answers:

1. I asked him to tell us all he knew about Jihad and told him that I knew there was a Lessor and a Greater Jihad and told him that I thought that people were confused between the two--not only Christians, but Muslims too.

His response:

I have never heard of a greater or a lesser Jihad. Jihad is simply Jihad which means to struggle -- to strive in the service or way or path of God and it can also mean the same for one's own life, family, community and friends. No one should not be confused on this word that teaches par excellence.

To those people who cannot understand Jihad in Islamic terms you can quote from the life of Jesus. Was Jesus fighting or warring with the Jews? No, Jesus did Jihad for God and suffered only to keep his God satisfied that as a servant of God Jesus strove or struggled in the way of God. That is the meaning of Jihad.

2. I said that I had heard that the greater Jihad was an internal stuggle and the the Lessor Jihad is Holy War.

His response: You are misinformed; there is no concept of a lesser Jihad. Wars have never been Holy. The word for fighting and war is Qitaal and Jidaal. For example, what is happening in Iraq is Qitaal and Jidaal by the Coalition and the Iraqi Resistance. You can call that as their Jihad for their country; if you still want to use the term Jihad.

America is doing its own Jihad in its own interests. There is nothing holy. The words can be used in many shades and that is no exception in English language either.

3. I asked him under what circumstances a Muslim would go to Holy War?

His response: If any nation declares war openly against Islam and the Muslims then under these circumstances each and every Muslim will have to go to war with that nation who declared war upon them and attacked and/or invaded them. In that case it will be declared as a Holy War because the invader declared a war on the religion and its followers.

I do hope you understand and that you would be kind enough to educate your Christian friends.

So, folks, do you understand now? Do you have a better idea of what Jihad means?

Shalom

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#10

Post by AttentionKMartShoppers » Tue Sep 20, 2005 8:07 am

Three American professors of Islamic studies colorfully make the latter point, explaining jihad as:

An "effort against evil in the self and every manifestation of evil in society" (Ibrahim Abu-Rabi, Hartford Seminary);
"Resisting apartheid or working for women's rights"


So, according to thing two, there has never been jihad :-p working for women's rights"...LOL
"My actions prove that God takes care of idiots."

He occasionally stumbled over the truth, but hastily picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened.
- On Stanley Baldwin

-Winston Churchill

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You need to start asking out girls so that you can get used to the rejections.
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#11

Post by Kurieuo » Tue Sep 20, 2005 8:52 am

Thanks Christian2. I always enjoy reading your insights on Islam. I think this just goes to show we need to judge each Muslim individually rather than boxing them all in the same box. As there are many shades of Christians, each with varying beliefs surrounding certain theological or Christian words, it seems the same can be said of Islam with Muslims and their understanding of jihad.

Although I would only evaluate a case by case, I'm inclined to think those Muslims brought up in western civilisation, or westernised to some extent, are more likely to see jihad in the light of your friend. On the other hand, I think in Middle Eastern countries where Islam is dominant and free of western thought, such may take a more violent perspective.

In any case, aren't many Muslims today of the mind that the west has infact initiated war against Muslims? Or isn't it believed there is a war always going on for as long as Islam isn't universal and challenges to it persist? If so, then by your friends words, wouldn't a "Holy War" actually be in effect for many Muslims who believe such things?

Kurieuo
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#12

Post by Christian2 » Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:36 am

Kurieuo,

You are right. We must not put all Muslims in the same box.
Although I would only evaluate a case by case, I'm inclined to think those Muslims brought up in western civilisation, or westernised to some extent, are more likely to see jihad in the light of your friend. On the other hand, I think in Middle Eastern countries where Islam is dominant and free of western thought, such may take a more violent perspective.
I agree. My Muslim friend does not live in the West, but he does live in a secular country and was brought up (I think) in India. Notice what this American Muslim website says about bin-Laden:

http://www.aicongress.org/teachersguide1.html
In any case, aren't many Muslims today of the mind that the west has infact initiated war against Muslims?
Yes, definitively. As far as I am aware the accusations started when the US went to war in Afghanistan. President Bush made the unfortunate remark that the war against terrorism was a crusade. The Muslims used that term as proof that the war on terrorism was a war on Islam, making the correction of the word crusade with the Christian crusades. Funny thing about those Christian crusades, which were horrible, the Muslims at least as far as I have ever seen, do not think of these crusades as a defense against Muslim aggression. Yet, the Muslims believe in defensive Holy War. If I am wrong about the Crusades, please correct me.
Or isn't it believed there is a war always going on for as long as Islam isn't universal and challenges to it persist?
I think this is a correct statement too. The Muslims/Islam would like to see everyone on the face of the earth embrace Islam, some by force. By the same token, I am sure that Christians would like to see everyone on the face of the earth embrace Christianity, but not by force. Muslims do not like Christian missionaries coming into their countries preaching the Gospel. These missionaries take their lives into their own hands by doing so.
If so, then by your friends words, wouldn't a "Holy War" actually be in effect for many Muslims who believe such things?
I would think so.

When I think of the inconsistencies within the teachings of Islam and the actions of Muslims regarding such matters as Jihad, my eyes start to cross and I get a headache. For instance: The leaders of Afghanistan had a couple of months to give up bin-Laden; they did not. Aren't they responsible for the war that followed in some way? Aren't they directly or indirectly responsible for the deaths of their citizens? And isn't bin-Laden especially responsible for the war and the deaths of Muslims? He hid under a rock and let the war happen; a war that he started. Does an individual Muslim such as bin-Laden have the authority to start a war (9/11) because he does not like the US's support of Israel and he does not like the US military in Saudi Arabia even if it is with Saudi Arabia's permission?

Look at the mess in Iraq. Muslims are killing Muslims. They are not supposed to do that. It is against the teachings of Islam. How do they justify that?

Shalom

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