Atheist question

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
Kenny
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Re: Atheist question

#151

Post by Kenny » Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:49 am

DBowling wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:40 am
Kenny wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:13 pm
RickD wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:11 pm
Information can't exist, without intelligence causing its existence.
Data exists regardless of intelligence, and intelligent beings turn that data into information.
Can ordered, complex, structured data exist without intelligence?
Can a novel exist without intelligence?
Can a computer program exist without intelligence?
Can a mathematical algorithm exist without intelligence?
Can a scientific theory exist without intelligence?
If by intelligence you mean people, I agree.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Atheist question

#152

Post by DBowling » Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:28 am

Kenny wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:49 am
DBowling wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:40 am
Kenny wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:13 pm
RickD wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:11 pm
Information can't exist, without intelligence causing its existence.
Data exists regardless of intelligence, and intelligent beings turn that data into information.
Can ordered, complex, structured data exist without intelligence?
Can a novel exist without intelligence?
Can a computer program exist without intelligence?
Can a mathematical algorithm exist without intelligence?
Can a scientific theory exist without intelligence?
If by intelligence you mean people, I agree.
So if human intelligence is required for the existence of ordered, complex, structured data such as a novel or a computer program,
would you agree that intelligence of some sort is also required for the existence of ordered, structured data that is more complex and intricate than a novel or computer program?

PaulSacramento
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Re: Atheist question

#153

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:24 am

Kenny,
Do you know of any case of information or data coming into existence from nothing?

Kenny
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Re: Atheist question

#154

Post by Kenny » Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:56 am

DBowling wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:28 am
Kenny wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:49 am
DBowling wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:40 am
Kenny wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:13 pm
RickD wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:11 pm
Information can't exist, without intelligence causing its existence.
Data exists regardless of intelligence, and intelligent beings turn that data into information.
Can ordered, complex, structured data exist without intelligence?
Can a novel exist without intelligence?
Can a computer program exist without intelligence?
Can a mathematical algorithm exist without intelligence?
Can a scientific theory exist without intelligence?
If by intelligence you mean people, I agree.
So if human intelligence is required for the existence of ordered, complex, structured data such as a novel or a computer program,
would you agree that intelligence of some sort is also required for the existence of ordered, structured data that is more complex and intricate than a novel or computer program?
What about a coral reef? Those look complex, structured, and intricate to me! What about Quantum Fluctuations that is responsible for hawking radiation? And those complicated things occur naturally. When you look past what we see here on Earth and consider all the natural events happening on the Sun, some distant star that we know nothing about, Galaxies a million light years away; are you sure nothing that complicated happens anywhere in the Universe? Because I’m not.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

Kenny
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Re: Atheist question

#155

Post by Kenny » Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:58 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:24 am
Kenny,
Do you know of any case of information or data coming into existence from nothing?
I see information like energy; it's all around us but it requires an intelligent person to extract it for usage.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Atheist question

#156

Post by DBowling » Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:28 am

Kenny wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:56 am
DBowling wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:28 am
Kenny wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:49 am
DBowling wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:40 am
Kenny wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:13 pm

Data exists regardless of intelligence, and intelligent beings turn that data into information.
Can ordered, complex, structured data exist without intelligence?
Can a novel exist without intelligence?
Can a computer program exist without intelligence?
Can a mathematical algorithm exist without intelligence?
Can a scientific theory exist without intelligence?
If by intelligence you mean people, I agree.
So if human intelligence is required for the existence of ordered, complex, structured data such as a novel or a computer program,
would you agree that intelligence of some sort is also required for the existence of ordered, structured data that is more complex and intricate than a novel or computer program?
What about a coral reef? Those look complex, structured, and intricate to me! What about Quantum Fluctuations that is responsible for hawking radiation? And those complicated things occur naturally. When you look past what we see here on Earth and consider all the natural events happening on the Sun, some distant star that we know nothing about, Galaxies a million light years away; are you sure nothing that complicated happens anywhere in the Universe? Because I’m not.
Which brings us back to the point I was making...
All of the phenomena that you mention are governed by structured, ordered, and extremely complex "laws of nature".
The Big Bang theory tells us when these structured, ordered, and extremely complex "laws of nature" began to function in our universe.

If we acknowledge that human intelligence is required for the ordered, structured and complex information in a novel or a computer system,
then intelligence of some sort would also be required for the structure, order, and complexity of the "laws of nature" that are many orders of magnitude more complex than any novel or computer program that humans can conceive.

PaulSacramento
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Re: Atheist question

#157

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:57 am

Kenny wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:58 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:24 am
Kenny,
Do you know of any case of information or data coming into existence from nothing?
I see information like energy; it's all around us but it requires an intelligent person to extract it for usage.
Information is like energy ?
Do the information in your cells, in your DNA is like energy?
How so?

Kenny
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Re: Atheist question

#158

Post by Kenny » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:47 am

DBowling wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:28 am
Kenny wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:56 am
DBowling wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:28 am
Kenny wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:49 am
DBowling wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:40 am

Can ordered, complex, structured data exist without intelligence?
Can a novel exist without intelligence?
Can a computer program exist without intelligence?
Can a mathematical algorithm exist without intelligence?
Can a scientific theory exist without intelligence?
If by intelligence you mean people, I agree.
So if human intelligence is required for the existence of ordered, complex, structured data such as a novel or a computer program,
would you agree that intelligence of some sort is also required for the existence of ordered, structured data that is more complex and intricate than a novel or computer program?
What about a coral reef? Those look complex, structured, and intricate to me! What about Quantum Fluctuations that is responsible for hawking radiation? And those complicated things occur naturally. When you look past what we see here on Earth and consider all the natural events happening on the Sun, some distant star that we know nothing about, Galaxies a million light years away; are you sure nothing that complicated happens anywhere in the Universe? Because I’m not.
Which brings us back to the point I was making...
All of the phenomena that you mention are governed by structured, ordered, and extremely complex "laws of nature".
The Big Bang theory tells us when these structured, ordered, and extremely complex "laws of nature" began to function in our universe.

If we acknowledge that human intelligence is required for the ordered, structured and complex information in a novel or a computer system,
then intelligence of some sort would also be required for the structure, order, and complexity of the "laws of nature" that are many orders of magnitude more complex than any novel or computer program that humans can conceive.
I understand your point. On Earth complicated, ordered, and structured things are usually the result of a human construct. But you are not addressing my point; if you are going to assume what happens on Earth is consistent with what happens concerning the entirety of the Universe when it comes to non-intelligence, then do the same for intelligence. Personally I find it absurd to assume that just because we see order and structure as a human construct on Earth, that it has to be for the entire Universe.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

Kenny
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Re: Atheist question

#159

Post by Kenny » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:50 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:57 am
Kenny wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:58 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:24 am
Kenny,
Do you know of any case of information or data coming into existence from nothing?
I see information like energy; it's all around us but it requires an intelligent person to extract it for usage.
Information is like energy ?
Do the information in your cells, in your DNA is like energy?
How so?
There is energy all around us. Man can make a solar panel and use it to convert that energy into electricity and use that electricity for personal gain.
There is information in our cells and DNA. Man can take that information and use it for personal gain.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Atheist question

#160

Post by RickD » Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:44 pm

Kenny wrote:
Personally I find it absurd to assume that just because we see order and structure as a human construct on Earth, that it has to be for the entire Universe.
Kenny,

If the universe didn't have consistent laws, or order, it wouldn't function as it does.

You now go as far as saying that you find it absurd that the entire universe has consistent laws, and structure.

The lengths that people will go to, to deny the obvious.

Now that's absurd.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Atheist question

#161

Post by DBowling » Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:50 pm

Kenny wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:47 am
DBowling wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:28 am
Kenny wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:56 am
DBowling wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:28 am
Kenny wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:49 am


If by intelligence you mean people, I agree.
So if human intelligence is required for the existence of ordered, complex, structured data such as a novel or a computer program,
would you agree that intelligence of some sort is also required for the existence of ordered, structured data that is more complex and intricate than a novel or computer program?
What about a coral reef? Those look complex, structured, and intricate to me! What about Quantum Fluctuations that is responsible for hawking radiation? And those complicated things occur naturally. When you look past what we see here on Earth and consider all the natural events happening on the Sun, some distant star that we know nothing about, Galaxies a million light years away; are you sure nothing that complicated happens anywhere in the Universe? Because I’m not.
Which brings us back to the point I was making...
All of the phenomena that you mention are governed by structured, ordered, and extremely complex "laws of nature".
The Big Bang theory tells us when these structured, ordered, and extremely complex "laws of nature" began to function in our universe.

If we acknowledge that human intelligence is required for the ordered, structured and complex information in a novel or a computer system,
then intelligence of some sort would also be required for the structure, order, and complexity of the "laws of nature" that are many orders of magnitude more complex than any novel or computer program that humans can conceive.
I understand your point. On Earth complicated, ordered, and structured things are usually the result of a human construct. But you are not addressing my point; if you are going to assume what happens on Earth is consistent with what happens concerning the entirety of the Universe when it comes to non-intelligence, then do the same for intelligence.
That is exactly what I am doing...
I am treating earth exactly the same way I am treating the rest of the universe.
If a certain level of order, structure, and complexity is a function of intelligence on earth, then I apply that same criteria to the rest of the universe and I treat the same (or more) level of order, structure, and complexity as an indication of intelligence elsewhere in the universe... just as it is on earth.

The structure, order, and complexity of the "laws of nature" indicate the same level of intelligence on earth as it does elsewhere in the universe.

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Re: Atheist question

#162

Post by Philip » Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:30 pm

Ken: Personally I find it absurd to assume that just because we see order and structure as a human construct on Earth, that it has to be for the entire Universe.

As far as our argument about what is possible without an intelligence, the systems, laws, biological life, and huge list of things of immense complexity exist right here on earth, that would unquestionably require an intelligence source. You don't have to expand that to the universe, to at least realize that. Of course, how the universe is so precisely configured also would take intelligence.

Ken, the problem you have isn't a lack of evidence - it's that you will simply not consider God's existence, unless it is a god like the one you would expect. That is why you go on about the nonsense of what might be possible without intelligence across the universe. You'd rather believe in the absurd and things NOT known to exist, that you think MIGHT exist, yet that could produce what exists without intelligence, rather than face the obvious - that a Creative Intelligence is required for all we already DO know about our planet!

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Re: Atheist question

#163

Post by Kenny » Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:15 pm

RickD wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:44 pm
Kenny wrote:
Personally I find it absurd to assume that just because we see order and structure as a human construct on Earth, that it has to be for the entire Universe.
Kenny,

If the universe didn't have consistent laws, or order, it wouldn't function as it does.

You now go as far as saying that you find it absurd that the entire universe has consistent laws, and structure.

The lengths that people will go to, to deny the obvious.

Now that's absurd.
That’s now what I said, and that isn’t the point I was making. My point is that he should apply the same standards to his argument that he applies to the opposing argument
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

Kenny
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Re: Atheist question

#164

Post by Kenny » Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:27 pm

Kenny wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:47 am
DBowling wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:28 am
Kenny wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:56 am
DBowling wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:28 am

So if human intelligence is required for the existence of ordered, complex, structured data such as a novel or a computer program,
would you agree that intelligence of some sort is also required for the existence of ordered, structured data that is more complex and intricate than a novel or computer program?
What about a coral reef? Those look complex, structured, and intricate to me! What about Quantum Fluctuations that is responsible for hawking radiation? And those complicated things occur naturally. When you look past what we see here on Earth and consider all the natural events happening on the Sun, some distant star that we know nothing about, Galaxies a million light years away; are you sure nothing that complicated happens anywhere in the Universe? Because I’m not.
Which brings us back to the point I was making...
All of the phenomena that you mention are governed by structured, ordered, and extremely complex "laws of nature".
The Big Bang theory tells us when these structured, ordered, and extremely complex "laws of nature" began to function in our universe.

If we acknowledge that human intelligence is required for the ordered, structured and complex information in a novel or a computer system,
then intelligence of some sort would also be required for the structure, order, and complexity of the "laws of nature" that are many orders of magnitude more complex than any novel or computer program that humans can conceive.
I understand your point. On Earth complicated, ordered, and structured things are usually the result of a human construct. But you are not addressing my point; if you are going to assume what happens on Earth is consistent with what happens concerning the entirety of the Universe when it comes to non-intelligence, then do the same for intelligence.
DBowling wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:50 pm
That is exactly what I am doing...
I am treating earth exactly the same way I am treating the rest of the universe.
How could you treat earth the way you treat the rest of the universe, when you don’t know the rest of the universe? You are doing the opposite; treating the rest of the Universe the way you treat Earth.
DBowling wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:50 pm
If a certain level of order, structure, and complexity is a function of intelligence on earth, then I apply that same criteria to the rest of the universe and I treat the same (or more) level of order, structure, and complexity as an indication of intelligence elsewhere in the universe... just as it is on earth.
They say scientists only know approx 4% of the Universe. What you are suggesting is like going to a library, picking up 1 book, reading it then assuming all the rest of the books in the Library is like the one you read.
DBowling wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:50 pm
The structure, order, and complexity of the "laws of nature" indicate the same level of intelligence on earth as it does elsewhere in the universe.
And intelligence on earth doesn’t live eternally. Using your logic you would have to assume intelligence nowhere is capable of living eternally.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Atheist question

#165

Post by Kenny » Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:39 pm

Philip wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:30 pm
Ken: Personally I find it absurd to assume that just because we see order and structure as a human construct on Earth, that it has to be for the entire Universe.

As far as our argument about what is possible without an intelligence, the systems, laws, biological life, and huge list of things of immense complexity exist right here on earth, that would unquestionably require an intelligence source.
That's not my point. My point is about applying the same standard to his argument he applies to the opposing arguments.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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