Information - Natural or Intelligence?

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
Kenny
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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#136

Post by Kenny » Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:02 pm

RickD wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:55 pm
Kenny wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:41 pm
RickD wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:13 pm
Kenny wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:04 pm
RickD wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:05 pm

No.
How is it different?
Let's assume that God created some kind of "materials", or matter from nothing. Then He eventually, perhaps millions or billions of years later, created living cells from existing matter.

Can you see how that would be different?
Okay; I think it is a bit of a semantics thing; but it still doesn’t change the point I was making back on post #82.
It shows that your logic is faulty. Unless you have some kind of evidence that X, aka cells, aka biological life, has always existed.
I've never claimed cells aka biological life has always existed, so I am not required to show that it has.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#137

Post by RickD » Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:31 pm

Kenny wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:02 pm
RickD wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:55 pm
Kenny wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:41 pm
RickD wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:13 pm
Kenny wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:04 pm

How is it different?
Let's assume that God created some kind of "materials", or matter from nothing. Then He eventually, perhaps millions or billions of years later, created living cells from existing matter.

Can you see how that would be different?
Okay; I think it is a bit of a semantics thing; but it still doesn’t change the point I was making back on post #82.
It shows that your logic is faulty. Unless you have some kind of evidence that X, aka cells, aka biological life, has always existed.
I've never claimed cells aka biological life has always existed, so I am not required to show that it has.
Isn't that what you were arguing here?
Consider the possibilities concerning “X”&“Y”. There is empirical evidence and scientific proof concerning the existence of X, but no empirical evidence nor scientific proof concerning the existence of Y.

1. “X” was never created because it always existed.
2. “X” was created by “Y”

My view is, scenario 1 sounds more logical and practical than scenario 2.
You said that your view is scenario 1 sounds more logical and practical.

In other words, your view is that x, or cells, or life, has always existed.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

Kenny
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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#138

Post by Kenny » Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:21 pm

RickD wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:31 pm
Kenny wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:02 pm
RickD wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:55 pm
Kenny wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:41 pm
RickD wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:13 pm

Let's assume that God created some kind of "materials", or matter from nothing. Then He eventually, perhaps millions or billions of years later, created living cells from existing matter.

Can you see how that would be different?
Okay; I think it is a bit of a semantics thing; but it still doesn’t change the point I was making back on post #82.
It shows that your logic is faulty. Unless you have some kind of evidence that X, aka cells, aka biological life, has always existed.
I've never claimed cells aka biological life has always existed, so I am not required to show that it has.
Isn't that what you were arguing here?
Consider the possibilities concerning “X”&“Y”. There is empirical evidence and scientific proof concerning the existence of X, but no empirical evidence nor scientific proof concerning the existence of Y.

1. “X” was never created because it always existed.
2. “X” was created by “Y”

My view is, scenario 1 sounds more logical and practical than scenario 2.
You said that your view is scenario 1 sounds more logical and practical.

In other words, your view is that x, or cells, or life, has always existed.
Just because If find #1 more practical than #2 does not mean I have proof that any of them are true.
BTW had I found #2 more practical, would you had called it faulty logic unless I had evidence that God exists and created cells?
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#139

Post by RickD » Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:11 am

Kenny wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:21 pm
RickD wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:31 pm
Kenny wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:02 pm
RickD wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:55 pm
Kenny wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:41 pm

Okay; I think it is a bit of a semantics thing; but it still doesn’t change the point I was making back on post #82.
It shows that your logic is faulty. Unless you have some kind of evidence that X, aka cells, aka biological life, has always existed.
I've never claimed cells aka biological life has always existed, so I am not required to show that it has.
Isn't that what you were arguing here?
Consider the possibilities concerning “X”&“Y”. There is empirical evidence and scientific proof concerning the existence of X, but no empirical evidence nor scientific proof concerning the existence of Y.

1. “X” was never created because it always existed.
2. “X” was created by “Y”

My view is, scenario 1 sounds more logical and practical than scenario 2.
You said that your view is scenario 1 sounds more logical and practical.

In other words, your view is that x, or cells, or life, has always existed.
Just because If find #1 more practical than #2 does not mean I have proof that any of them are true.
BTW had I found #2 more practical, would you had called it faulty logic unless I had evidence that God exists and created cells?
It doesn't mean that you have proof that any of them are true?

Didn't you say, "There is empirical evidence and scientific proof concerning the existence of X"?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

Kenny
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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#140

Post by Kenny » Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:46 am

RickD wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:11 am
Kenny wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:21 pm
RickD wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:31 pm
Kenny wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:02 pm
RickD wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:55 pm


It shows that your logic is faulty. Unless you have some kind of evidence that X, aka cells, aka biological life, has always existed.
I've never claimed cells aka biological life has always existed, so I am not required to show that it has.
Isn't that what you were arguing here?
Consider the possibilities concerning “X”&“Y”. There is empirical evidence and scientific proof concerning the existence of X, but no empirical evidence nor scientific proof concerning the existence of Y.

1. “X” was never created because it always existed.
2. “X” was created by “Y”

My view is, scenario 1 sounds more logical and practical than scenario 2.
You said that your view is scenario 1 sounds more logical and practical.

In other words, your view is that x, or cells, or life, has always existed.
Just because If find #1 more practical than #2 does not mean I have proof that any of them are true.
BTW had I found #2 more practical, would you had called it faulty logic unless I had evidence that God exists and created cells?
It doesn't mean that you have proof that any of them are true?

Didn't you say, "There is empirical evidence and scientific proof concerning the existence of X"?
With "X" being cells, there is empirical evidence concerning the existence of Cells.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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RickD
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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#141

Post by RickD » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:43 am

Kenny wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:46 am
RickD wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:11 am
Kenny wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:21 pm
RickD wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:31 pm
Kenny wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:02 pm

I've never claimed cells aka biological life has always existed, so I am not required to show that it has.
Isn't that what you were arguing here?
Consider the possibilities concerning “X”&“Y”. There is empirical evidence and scientific proof concerning the existence of X, but no empirical evidence nor scientific proof concerning the existence of Y.

1. “X” was never created because it always existed.
2. “X” was created by “Y”

My view is, scenario 1 sounds more logical and practical than scenario 2.
You said that your view is scenario 1 sounds more logical and practical.

In other words, your view is that x, or cells, or life, has always existed.
Just because If find #1 more practical than #2 does not mean I have proof that any of them are true.
BTW had I found #2 more practical, would you had called it faulty logic unless I had evidence that God exists and created cells?
It doesn't mean that you have proof that any of them are true?

Didn't you say, "There is empirical evidence and scientific proof concerning the existence of X"?
With "X" being cells, there is empirical evidence concerning the existence of Cells.
But that's not what you said. You said there was empirical evidence that cells always existed.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

PaulSacramento
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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#142

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:23 am

You aren't going to answer my question are you. Again; is there anything of the material world that God didn't create? (a yes or no answer would be just fine)
God is directly AND indirectly responsible for all creation AND CHANGE in the universe.
If you understood the "first cause" and "Unmoved mover" arguments, you would understand that.

That ANYTHING exists, it exits because of God.
That anything comes into being OR changes from what it is to something else, it does because of God.

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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#143

Post by Kenny » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:39 am

RickD wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:43 am
Kenny wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:46 am
RickD wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:11 am
Kenny wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:21 pm
RickD wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:31 pm


Isn't that what you were arguing here?


You said that your view is scenario 1 sounds more logical and practical.

In other words, your view is that x, or cells, or life, has always existed.
Just because If find #1 more practical than #2 does not mean I have proof that any of them are true.
BTW had I found #2 more practical, would you had called it faulty logic unless I had evidence that God exists and created cells?
It doesn't mean that you have proof that any of them are true?

Didn't you say, "There is empirical evidence and scientific proof concerning the existence of X"?
With "X" being cells, there is empirical evidence concerning the existence of Cells.
But that's not what you said. You said there was empirical evidence that cells always existed.
You've obviously misunderstood me. That's not what I said. Go back and read what I wrote.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#144

Post by Kenny » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:43 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:23 am
You aren't going to answer my question are you. Again; is there anything of the material world that God didn't create? (a yes or no answer would be just fine)
God is directly AND indirectly responsible for all creation AND CHANGE in the universe.
That is the point I was trying to make with the person I was discussing with. Thanks for making my point.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#145

Post by RickD » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:47 am

Kenny wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:39 am
RickD wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:43 am
Kenny wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:46 am
RickD wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:11 am
Kenny wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:21 pm


Just because If find #1 more practical than #2 does not mean I have proof that any of them are true.
BTW had I found #2 more practical, would you had called it faulty logic unless I had evidence that God exists and created cells?
It doesn't mean that you have proof that any of them are true?

Didn't you say, "There is empirical evidence and scientific proof concerning the existence of X"?
With "X" being cells, there is empirical evidence concerning the existence of Cells.
But that's not what you said. You said there was empirical evidence that cells always existed.
You've obviously misunderstood me. That's not what I said. Go back and read what I wrote.
Come on Kenny!

You said that X equals cells, and Y equals God.

And you said that there's scientific empirical evidence that X always existed.

You might want to go back and read what you wrote.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

PaulSacramento
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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#146

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:25 am


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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#147

Post by RickD » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:33 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:25 am
Quite appropriate:
https://www.livescience.com/65254-what- ... tification
That article may be more nebulous than Kenny's posts!
:lol:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

PaulSacramento
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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#148

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:06 am

RickD wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:33 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:25 am
Quite appropriate:
https://www.livescience.com/65254-what- ... tification
That article may be more nebulous than Kenny's posts!
:lol:
I won't say that.
It was clear on the clearness of the things it was clear on.

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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#149

Post by Philip » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:25 am

That article may be more nebulous than Kenny's posts! :lol:
Impossible, as such a thing is impossible to exist! :pound:

Course, Ken would say, "Well, just because we don't know something exists doesn't prove it doesn't!"

:pound: More nebelous than his posts? Nah! :roll:

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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#150

Post by Kenny » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:28 am

RickD wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:47 am
Kenny wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:39 am
RickD wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:43 am
Kenny wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:46 am
RickD wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:11 am

It doesn't mean that you have proof that any of them are true?

Didn't you say, "There is empirical evidence and scientific proof concerning the existence of X"?
With "X" being cells, there is empirical evidence concerning the existence of Cells.
But that's not what you said. You said there was empirical evidence that cells always existed.
You've obviously misunderstood me. That's not what I said. Go back and read what I wrote.
Come on Kenny!

You said that X equals cells, and Y equals God.

And you said that there's scientific empirical evidence that X always existed.

You might want to go back and read what you wrote.
From post #82

Consider the possibilities concerning “X”&“Y”. There is empirical evidence and scientific proof concerning the existence of X, but no empirical evidence nor scientific proof concerning the existence of Y.
1. “X” was never created because it always existed.
2. “X” was created by “Y”
My view is, scenario 1 sounds more logical and practical than scenario 2.


Now in this scenario, “X” represents the cell, and “Y” represents God. I never said I had proof (or even believed) that “X” (cells) had an eternal existence, I was just saying the likelihood of them having such an existence sounds more practical to me than “Y” (God) creating them. After all, if they did have an eternal existence, how would we know?
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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