Information - Natural or Intelligence?

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#106

Post by Philip » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:12 am

Ken knows this, I am not sure what he is trying to pull to be honest.
Because there's nothing quite as effective as self delusion - and he's mastered it! And it takes constant effort because he knows the ridiculously impossible odds of a universe instantly appearing with just the necessary things and then beginning to brilliantly self assemble itself, "as if" there were a massive intelligence guiding it. And so he has to constantly tell himself and also claim absurdities, so he won't have any anxiety about what he asserts to be an alternative. And because he well knows the consequences of his will "if" he's wrong!

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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#107

Post by Kenny » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:29 am

RickD wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:52 am
You guys are arguing semantics.

Ever heard of a painter creating a masterpiece?

He didn't create the masterpiece from nothing. There's paint, a brush, and a canvas that already existed.
Back on post #82 (which is what we are responding to) I used the term “create” to mean bring into existence from nothing; after all according to the creation story, God more than just “bring forth something “NEW” that didn’t exist before, he created something from nothing. God didn’t create things from existing materials whose existence he had nothing to do with, like the painter in your analogy; right? That is the point I was addressing.
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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#108

Post by Kenny » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:33 am

Philip wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:12 am
Ken knows this, I am not sure what he is trying to pull to be honest.
Because there's nothing quite as effective as self delusion - and he's mastered it! And it takes constant effort because he knows the ridiculously impossible odds of a universe instantly appearing
As many discussions as we've had, you still think that is what I believe? Amazing!
RickD wrote
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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#109

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:44 am

Kenny wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:29 am
RickD wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:52 am
You guys are arguing semantics.

Ever heard of a painter creating a masterpiece?

He didn't create the masterpiece from nothing. There's paint, a brush, and a canvas that already existed.
Back on post #82 (which is what we are responding to) I used the term “create” to mean bring into existence from nothing; after all according to the creation story, God more than just “bring forth something “NEW” that didn’t exist before, he created something from nothing. God didn’t create things from existing materials whose existence he had nothing to do with, like the painter in your analogy; right? That is the point I was addressing.
We were talking about cells Ken.
No one was talking about God.

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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#110

Post by Philip » Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:14 pm

Ken: As many discussions as we've had, you still think that is what I believe? Amazing!
Ken, you believe in some kind of explanation for the universe that does not require God - that is my point about your self-delusion! I could care less whether, for you, that manifests itself as some kind of eternal existing causes / things, or whether there was nothing and then suddenly, an incredible universe beginning. And you appear to reject the idea that any intelligence was necessary in what occurred - another delusion.

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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#111

Post by Kenny » Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:05 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:44 am
Kenny wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:29 am
RickD wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:52 am
You guys are arguing semantics.

Ever heard of a painter creating a masterpiece?

He didn't create the masterpiece from nothing. There's paint, a brush, and a canvas that already existed.
Back on post #82 (which is what we are responding to) I used the term “create” to mean bring into existence from nothing; after all according to the creation story, God more than just “bring forth something “NEW” that didn’t exist before, he created something from nothing. God didn’t create things from existing materials whose existence he had nothing to do with, like the painter in your analogy; right? That is the point I was addressing.
We were talking about cells Ken.
No one was talking about God.
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. In the analogy about X & Y I gave in post #82, "X" represented cells, "Y" represented God.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#112

Post by Kenny » Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:12 pm

Philip wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:14 pm
Ken: As many discussions as we've had, you still think that is what I believe? Amazing!
Ken, you believe in some kind of explanation for the universe that does not require God
True. So why did you speak of the odds of the Universe instantly appearing; despite the countless other options one could believe that doesn't include God or the Universe instantly appearing, and the fact that I've mentioned many times that the idea of something coming from nothing, or the idea of the Universe just popping into existence makes no sense to me?
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#113

Post by RickD » Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:15 pm

Kenny wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:05 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:44 am
Kenny wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:29 am
RickD wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:52 am
You guys are arguing semantics.

Ever heard of a painter creating a masterpiece?

He didn't create the masterpiece from nothing. There's paint, a brush, and a canvas that already existed.
Back on post #82 (which is what we are responding to) I used the term “create” to mean bring into existence from nothing; after all according to the creation story, God more than just “bring forth something “NEW” that didn’t exist before, he created something from nothing. God didn’t create things from existing materials whose existence he had nothing to do with, like the painter in your analogy; right? That is the point I was addressing.
We were talking about cells Ken.
No one was talking about God.
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. In the analogy about X & Y I gave in post #82, "X" represented cells, "Y" represented God.
Ken,

Your "analogy" that you posted in post #82, here:
Consider the possibilities concerning “X”&“Y”. There is empirical evidence and scientific proof concerning the existence of X, but no empirical evidence nor scientific proof concerning the existence of Y.

1. “X” was never created because it always existed.
2. “X” was created by “Y”
This is a false dichotomy.

Why must it only be 1 or 2? By your definition of create, God making something from nothing, why must cells be created from nothing, and not from existing material?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#114

Post by Kenny » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:53 pm

RickD wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:15 pm
Kenny wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:05 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:44 am
Kenny wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:29 am
RickD wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:52 am
You guys are arguing semantics.

Ever heard of a painter creating a masterpiece?

He didn't create the masterpiece from nothing. There's paint, a brush, and a canvas that already existed.
Back on post #82 (which is what we are responding to) I used the term “create” to mean bring into existence from nothing; after all according to the creation story, God more than just “bring forth something “NEW” that didn’t exist before, he created something from nothing. God didn’t create things from existing materials whose existence he had nothing to do with, like the painter in your analogy; right? That is the point I was addressing.
We were talking about cells Ken.
No one was talking about God.
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. In the analogy about X & Y I gave in post #82, "X" represented cells, "Y" represented God.
Ken,

Your "analogy" that you posted in post #82, here:
Consider the possibilities concerning “X”&“Y”. There is empirical evidence and scientific proof concerning the existence of X, but no empirical evidence nor scientific proof concerning the existence of Y.

1. “X” was never created because it always existed.
2. “X” was created by “Y”
This is a false dichotomy.

Why must it only be 1 or 2? By your definition of create, God making something from nothing, why must cells be created from nothing, and not from existing material?
If God create materials from nothing, then he uses those materials to assemble “X”, that is the same as God creating “X” from nothing.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#115

Post by RickD » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:49 pm

Kenny wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:53 pm
RickD wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:15 pm
Kenny wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:05 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:44 am
Kenny wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:29 am


Back on post #82 (which is what we are responding to) I used the term “create” to mean bring into existence from nothing; after all according to the creation story, God more than just “bring forth something “NEW” that didn’t exist before, he created something from nothing. God didn’t create things from existing materials whose existence he had nothing to do with, like the painter in your analogy; right? That is the point I was addressing.
We were talking about cells Ken.
No one was talking about God.
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. In the analogy about X & Y I gave in post #82, "X" represented cells, "Y" represented God.
Ken,

Your "analogy" that you posted in post #82, here:
Consider the possibilities concerning “X”&“Y”. There is empirical evidence and scientific proof concerning the existence of X, but no empirical evidence nor scientific proof concerning the existence of Y.

1. “X” was never created because it always existed.
2. “X” was created by “Y”
This is a false dichotomy.

Why must it only be 1 or 2? By your definition of create, God making something from nothing, why must cells be created from nothing, and not from existing material?
If God create materials from nothing, then he uses those materials to assemble “X”, that is the same as God creating “X” from nothing.
I thought you said that you were talking about cells?

Why couldn't God have used something that existed, to create cells?

Why must God have popped cells out of thin air?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

Kenny
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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#116

Post by Kenny » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:20 pm

RickD wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:49 pm
Kenny wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:53 pm
RickD wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:15 pm
Kenny wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:05 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:44 am


We were talking about cells Ken.
No one was talking about God.
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. In the analogy about X & Y I gave in post #82, "X" represented cells, "Y" represented God.
Ken,

Your "analogy" that you posted in post #82, here:
Consider the possibilities concerning “X”&“Y”. There is empirical evidence and scientific proof concerning the existence of X, but no empirical evidence nor scientific proof concerning the existence of Y.

1. “X” was never created because it always existed.
2. “X” was created by “Y”
This is a false dichotomy.

Why must it only be 1 or 2? By your definition of create, God making something from nothing, why must cells be created from nothing, and not from existing material?
If God create materials from nothing, then he uses those materials to assemble “X”, that is the same as God creating “X” from nothing.
I thought you said that you were talking about cells?

Why couldn't God have used something that existed, to create cells?

Why must God have popped cells out of thin air?
Are you saying there are things of the material world that God did not create?
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#117

Post by Philip » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:50 pm

Kenny wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:12 pm
Philip wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:14 pm
Ken: As many discussions as we've had, you still think that is what I believe? Amazing!
Ken, you believe in some kind of explanation for the universe that does not require God
True. So why did you speak of the odds of the Universe instantly appearing; despite the countless other options one could believe that doesn't include God or the Universe instantly appearing, and the fact that I've mentioned many times that the idea of something coming from nothing, or the idea of the Universe just popping into existence makes no sense to me?
Because, Ken, ALL of those options you insist upon would rely upon NO intelligence in designing and assembling the universe - which goes against the fact that we have zero evidence of even very simple things being newly created and designed or controlled by non-intelligent things. And because the only option of characteristics of sources for the universe are from some kind of eternal thing or things. Yes, you're correct, things don't just pop into place without a source - but they sure as heck can't be designed and orchestrated on the level of the early universe without great intelligence! But you are so off into your fantasy assumptions that you don't even appear to accept the teachings of general physics - for which there are now exhaustive evidences - thus you go on about already existing cells. So you continue to talk nonsense that I don't even believe YOU truly believe is possible.

Even in our conjecture of you finding a fairly simple machine on an unvisited planet, you said you would assume that somewhere there was an INTELLIGENT, already existing source that created it. With the key being you recognize that even a simple machine in design and function requires an intelligent designer!

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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#118

Post by RickD » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:15 pm

Kenny wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:20 pm
RickD wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:49 pm
Kenny wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:53 pm
RickD wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:15 pm
Kenny wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:05 pm


Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. In the analogy about X & Y I gave in post #82, "X" represented cells, "Y" represented God.
Ken,

Your "analogy" that you posted in post #82, here:
Consider the possibilities concerning “X”&“Y”. There is empirical evidence and scientific proof concerning the existence of X, but no empirical evidence nor scientific proof concerning the existence of Y.

1. “X” was never created because it always existed.
2. “X” was created by “Y”
This is a false dichotomy.

Why must it only be 1 or 2? By your definition of create, God making something from nothing, why must cells be created from nothing, and not from existing material?
If God create materials from nothing, then he uses those materials to assemble “X”, that is the same as God creating “X” from nothing.
I thought you said that you were talking about cells?

Why couldn't God have used something that existed, to create cells?

Why must God have popped cells out of thin air?
Are you saying there are things of the material world that God did not create?
No Ken, I was responding to what YOU said.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

Kenny
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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#119

Post by Kenny » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:37 pm

Kenny wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:12 pm
Philip wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:14 pm
Ken: As many discussions as we've had, you still think that is what I believe? Amazing!
Ken, you believe in some kind of explanation for the universe that does not require God
True. So why did you speak of the odds of the Universe instantly appearing; despite the countless other options one could believe that doesn't include God or the Universe instantly appearing, and the fact that I've mentioned many times that the idea of something coming from nothing, or the idea of the Universe just popping into existence makes no sense to me?
Philip wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:50 pm
Because, Ken, ALL of those options you insist upon would rely upon NO intelligence in designing and assembling the universe - which goes against the fact that we have zero evidence of even very simple things being newly created and designed or controlled by non-intelligent things.
We have zero evidence of the Universe actually being “designed and assembled” either! If the singularity that eventually expanded was eternal, that would exempt it from design and assembly won't it.
Philip wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:50 pm
And because the only option of characteristics of sources for the universe are from some kind of eternal thing or things. Yes, you're correct, things don't just pop into place without a source - but they sure as heck can't be designed and orchestrated on the level of the early universe without great intelligence!

Again; if the Singularity that expanded had an eternal existence, that would dispel the “design and orchestrated” idea as well won’t it.
Philip wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:50 pm
Even in our conjecture of you finding a fairly simple machine on an unvisited planet, you said you would assume that somewhere there was an INTELLIGENT, already existing source that created it. With the key being you recognize that even a simple machine in design and function requires an intelligent designer!
I said that because you insist on using the term “machine” to describe what I found on said planet in your scenario. Only humans make machines, there is no evidence of them being made by anything else! So if I came upon something that I recognized as a machine, I would not only assume it was intelligently designed, but that it was designed by a human being.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#120

Post by Kenny » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:39 pm

RickD wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:15 pm
Kenny wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:20 pm
RickD wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:49 pm
Kenny wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:53 pm
RickD wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:15 pm


Ken,

Your "analogy" that you posted in post #82, here:


This is a false dichotomy.

Why must it only be 1 or 2? By your definition of create, God making something from nothing, why must cells be created from nothing, and not from existing material?
If God create materials from nothing, then he uses those materials to assemble “X”, that is the same as God creating “X” from nothing.
I thought you said that you were talking about cells?

Why couldn't God have used something that existed, to create cells?

Why must God have popped cells out of thin air?
Are you saying there are things of the material world that God did not create?
No Ken, I was responding to what YOU said.
So again; if God created materials from nothing, and used those materials to assemble cells, that would be the same as God creating cells from nothing.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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