Information - Natural or Intelligence?

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
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Kurieuo
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Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#1

Post by Kurieuo » Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:29 pm

A series of questions.

Do you believe there is information in the natural world? (i.e., whether found in matter, chemistry, biology, etc)

If yes, doesn't information require intelligence?

If not, why not?
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#2

Post by Philip » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:33 am

To pursue, gather, assess or act upon information requires an intelligence.

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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#3

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:20 am

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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#4

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:26 am

Information, information, information

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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#5

Post by Kurieuo » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:21 pm

I just noticed in the other thread re: reasons I'm an Atheist, that it was being said non-intelligence can't bring forth intelligence. Putting it that way, makes things feel a little unclear though, like it needs to be unpacked and explained "why not?"

The real issue I think to overcome though, is an information problem found in the natural order. If an intelligences didn't exist, then please explain why there is this information found in the natural world. How did it form? In our experience, we truly only know one source for information, and that is intelligent beings.

The linked-to discussion between Shapiro and Meyer covers much of what I was alluding to in my opening post -- as well as various common responses to the information problem and why they don't hold up.
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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#6

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:45 am

Kurieuo wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:21 pm
I just noticed in the other thread re: reasons I'm an Atheist, that it was being said non-intelligence can't bring forth intelligence. Putting it that way, makes things feel a little unclear though, like it needs to be unpacked and explained "why not?"

The real issue I think to overcome though, is an information problem found in the natural order. If an intelligences didn't exist, then please explain why there is this information found in the natural world. How did it form? In our experience, we truly only know one source for information, and that is intelligent beings.

The linked-to discussion between Shapiro and Meyer covers much of what I was alluding to in my opening post -- as well as various common responses to the information problem and why they don't hold up.
The circular argument is amazing to see.
Intelligence is, obviously, immaterial and as such, not part of the material world BUT a materialist can't accept that since ALL is part of th ematerial world.
So then, intelligence becomes a description of something, of what? well, intelligence !
LOL !

The properties of intelligence must have existed materially, of course, yet, intelligence is not a material thing.

Ouch.
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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#7

Post by Philip » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:34 pm

You guys are preaching to the choir, here! :D Maybe you're being too logical for some? Oh, well, some will never let inconvenient facts get in the way of their determination to embrace non-theism!

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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#8

Post by Kenny » Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:27 pm

Kurieuo wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:21 pm
I just noticed in the other thread re: reasons I'm an Atheist, that it was being said non-intelligence can't bring forth intelligence. Putting it that way, makes things feel a little unclear though, like it needs to be unpacked and explained "why not?"

The real issue I think to overcome though, is an information problem found in the natural order. If an intelligences didn't exist, then please explain why there is this information found in the natural world. How did it form? In our experience, we truly only know one source for information, and that is intelligent beings.

The linked-to discussion between Shapiro and Meyer covers much of what I was alluding to in my opening post -- as well as various common responses to the information problem and why they don't hold up.
PaulSacramento wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:45 am
The circular argument is amazing to see.
Intelligence is, obviously, immaterial and as such, not part of the material world BUT a materialist can't accept that since ALL is part of th ematerial world.
I don’t know how many times I will need to keep repeating this; but as I said before, I have never said everything was a part of the material world. Are thoughts, ideas, or beliefs a part of the material world? Of course not! Neither is intelligence. Intelligence is a label we attach to something that IS a part of the material world. Like thoughts, ideas, or beliefs; intelligence only exists in the context of things that do exist in the material world. Intelligence does not have an actual existence by itself.
PaulSacramento wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:45 am
So then, intelligence becomes a description of something, of what? well, intelligence !
LOL !
No; intelligence is a label/description of something that is a part of the material world.
PaulSacramento wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:45 am
The properties of intelligence must have existed materially, of course, yet, intelligence is not a material thing.

Ouch.
Really? So what are these material properties of intelligence?
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#9

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:37 am

That is what I am asking YOU Kenny.
That is what we are all asking you.

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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#10

Post by Kenny » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:46 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:37 am
That is what I am asking YOU Kenny.
That is what we are all asking you.
I'm not the one claiming intelligence existed materially
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#11

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:08 am

Kenny wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:46 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:37 am
That is what I am asking YOU Kenny.
That is what we are all asking you.
I'm not the one claiming intelligence existed materially
You stated that intelligence is a description of a material thing, yes?

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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#12

Post by 1over137 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:18 am

Well, Scott,
Could you please define for me what 'information' is?

Without that I cannot even start to think about all that. :)
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#13

Post by Kenny » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:21 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:08 am
Kenny wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:46 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:37 am
That is what I am asking YOU Kenny.
That is what we are all asking you.
I'm not the one claiming intelligence existed materially
You stated that intelligence is a description of a material thing, yes?
Yes! Intelligence is one of many descriptions.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#14

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:58 am

Kenny wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:21 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:08 am
Kenny wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:46 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:37 am
That is what I am asking YOU Kenny.
That is what we are all asking you.
I'm not the one claiming intelligence existed materially
You stated that intelligence is a description of a material thing, yes?
Yes! Intelligence is one of many descriptions.
What MATERIAL thing is it describing?

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Re: Information - Natural or Intelligence?

#15

Post by Kenny » Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:05 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:58 am
Kenny wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:21 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:08 am
Kenny wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:46 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:37 am
That is what I am asking YOU Kenny.
That is what we are all asking you.
I'm not the one claiming intelligence existed materially
You stated that intelligence is a description of a material thing, yes?
Yes! Intelligence is one of many descriptions.
What MATERIAL thing is it describing?
People.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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