There is no Hope without Jesus

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
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PaulSacramento
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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#61

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:31 am

Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:And my point Kenny is that, and this has been mentioned before, YOUR understanding of Christianity and what Christians think/believe, is not very good.
Are you under the impression that there is a consistency in what Christians think/believe? Just because you as a Christian may think/believe "X" doesn't mean all or even most other Christians will think/believe it.
All Christians believe:
God is Eternal
God is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient, All loving, the creator of all that exists.
That belief in God is rational and reasonable.
The Jesus Christ is Son of God, has the same nature as God, that He died and was resurrected and will come again.
The wicked and those that reject Christ will be judged.

Sounds pretty consistent to me...
I agree! Now considering all the discussions you and I have had over the years; which on this list do you get the impression that I am unaware Christians believe?

Ken
I think you are unaware of what it MEANS to believe those things and what those things actually mean.
But that is another thread.

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#62

Post by Kenny » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:24 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:And my point Kenny is that, and this has been mentioned before, YOUR understanding of Christianity and what Christians think/believe, is not very good.
Are you under the impression that there is a consistency in what Christians think/believe? Just because you as a Christian may think/believe "X" doesn't mean all or even most other Christians will think/believe it.
All Christians believe:
God is Eternal
God is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient, All loving, the creator of all that exists.
That belief in God is rational and reasonable.
The Jesus Christ is Son of God, has the same nature as God, that He died and was resurrected and will come again.
The wicked and those that reject Christ will be judged.

Sounds pretty consistent to me...
I agree! Now considering all the discussions you and I have had over the years; which on this list do you get the impression that I am unaware Christians believe?

Ken
I think you are unaware of what it MEANS to believe those things and what those things actually mean.
But that is another thread.
Did you arrive to this conclusion based on my Santa Clause analogy? Or is it from our discussions you’ve concluded I don’t understand the concept of eternity, the concept of Omnipotent, Omnipresent, & Omniscient, and all that other stuff you mentioned?
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

PaulSacramento
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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#63

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:42 pm

From your history of posting, yes.
Now, I grant you that you have a basic understanding of what I like to call "sunday school theology" or "movie/tv theology".

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#64

Post by Kenny » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:10 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:From your history of posting, yes.
Now, I grant you that you have a basic understanding of what I like to call "sunday school theology" or "movie/tv theology".
Do you believe it is possible to understand what Christians believe, and still reject it?

Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#65

Post by Storyteller » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:51 pm

Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:From your history of posting, yes.
Now, I grant you that you have a basic understanding of what I like to call "sunday school theology" or "movie/tv theology".
Do you believe it is possible to understand what Christians believe, and still reject it?

Ken
I dont think you really do understand what Christians believe because I think if you did, you wouldnt reject it. You are a smart guy Ken.

Do me a favour? An experiment. Argue the case for God, for say a week. Argue like you believe God exists, tell me who your God is and why.
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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#66

Post by Kenny » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:00 pm

Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:From your history of posting, yes.
Now, I grant you that you have a basic understanding of what I like to call "sunday school theology" or "movie/tv theology".
Do you believe it is possible to understand what Christians believe, and still reject it?

Ken
Storyteller wrote: I dont think you really do understand what Christians believe because I think if you did, you wouldnt reject it. You are a smart guy Ken.
Good to see you again Storyteller; haven’t heard from you in a while.
As far as understanding what Christians believe, the person I was discussing with listed 5 things that all Christians believe

*God is eternal
*God is all; knowing, good, powerful, and presence everywhere.
*Belief in God is rational
*Jesus is the Son of God, he died, rose, and will return
*Non believers will be judged.

Now as simple as those 5 beliefs are, he is convinced I don’t understand them. He said it is due to the previous conversations we’ve had. I suspect if he honestly feels that way, there is little more I can say to convince him otherwise, but trust me; I do understand those 5 points.
But you say if I understood them I would not reject Christianity. Is it your opinion that a person must either convert to Christianity, or already be a Christian to understand those 5 points? And does this apply to other religions or only Christianity. In other words, (for example) if someone were to explain the 4 stages of life in Hinduism to you, do you believe you would have to convert to Hinduism in order to understand what is being explained? Or do you believe you can understand what he is telling you while keeping your faith in tact.
Storyteller wrote: Do me a favour? An experiment. Argue the case for God, for say a week. Argue like you believe God exists, tell me who your God is and why.
I don’t know if you remember some of our previous conversations, but years ago, I spent much more than a week arguing a case for God when I was Christian, even to the point of attempting to ignore evidence that caused me to question or even contradicted what I wanted to be true. Obviously it didn’t work.
However if I were to try this experiment now, the God I would make a case for would be similar to the one you worship, except he wouldn’t involve himself in human affairs. Sorta like planting a seed and just watching it grow without interference on his part. A God that chooses to remain hidden without any contact with his creation would make more sense to me.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#67

Post by Kurieuo » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:32 pm

Kenny wrote:However if I were to try this experiment now, the God I would make a case for would be similar to the one you worship, except he wouldn’t involve himself in human affairs. Sorta like planting a seed and just watching it grow without interference on his part. A God that chooses to remain hidden without any contact with his creation would make more sense to me.
And, doesn't that scenario you present here make more sense than everything just randomly happening like magic to fall into place? That from a state of nothingness and/or chaos something stable and intelligible is had like us and what we experience came to be? Reject Christianity if you feel you must - you can only be honest with your thoughts.

To use an anlogy of a building a house to highlight how an Atheist sees the world. Let's say all the bricks and timber is lying around on a building site ready to build a new house, and then a hurricane hits. It would be absurd to think that a house could randomly arise out of the chaos of that hurricane. I suppose such is possible, even if a 1 in 10^999999 chance, yet it seems I'd be justified to believe that if I see a house it was made and even planned out by a builder. Yet, the Atheist looks at the house (world) and says something like, "It exists doesn't it? So the improbable obviously became actual. Get over it!"
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#68

Post by Storyteller » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:47 pm

Ken..
Good to see you too my friend..

Okay, i agree with a lot of what you say. It isnt just non belivers that will be judged though, we will all be judged, tis just some of us will be forgiven through Christ.
I can understand other faiths, I see a lot of good in them, and yes i keep my faith in tact. Point here, you dont have faith.

My God doesnt involve himself, that my friend, is the whole point.
He has planted that seed Ken. You are still here, looking. You argue against him yet youre not dismissive. Let him in.

Pray. Talk to him. Challenge him.

I never wanted, or want, to be a "bible basher" or even convince people of God but the more i seek him, the more I learn, the more I think tis the only explanation.

There is something so incredibly unique about you, me, humankind. Quantum physics, Schodringers cat, atoms interchanging between matter and energy.... that, from evolution?

Why do we question?
I think therefore i am.

God is existence.

Forget Christ for now but surely you believe there is something behind all this?
Otherwise, why not just do whatever you want to do?

It took me a long while to fully accept this, God, to realise tis a personal relationship. Reach out to him Ken.
Please.
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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#69

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:24 am

Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:From your history of posting, yes.
Now, I grant you that you have a basic understanding of what I like to call "sunday school theology" or "movie/tv theology".
Do you believe it is possible to understand what Christians believe, and still reject it?

Ken
Of course.
Understanding does not equal agreeing.

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#70

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:26 am

However if I were to try this experiment now, the God I would make a case for would be similar to the one you worship, except he wouldn’t involve himself in human affairs. Sorta like planting a seed and just watching it grow without interference on his part. A God that chooses to remain hidden without any contact with his creation would make more sense to me.
Because you don't believe in free will?

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#71

Post by Kenny » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:22 am

Kurieuo wrote:
Kenny wrote:However if I were to try this experiment now, the God I would make a case for would be similar to the one you worship, except he wouldn’t involve himself in human affairs. Sorta like planting a seed and just watching it grow without interference on his part. A God that chooses to remain hidden without any contact with his creation would make more sense to me.
And, doesn't that scenario you present here make more sense than everything just randomly happening like magic to fall into place? That from a state of nothingness and/or chaos something stable and intelligible is had like us and what we experience came to be? Reject Christianity if you feel you must - you can only be honest with your thoughts.
If God didn’t want to be known, worshipped, or control us, we might as well live as atheists; right? Of course this wouldn't prevent dishonest people from creating a different version of God via their imagination; that does want to do all of those things, and of course they would claim God speaks through them thus giving them the power of speaking for God etc. etc..... but then that is a different topic.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#72

Post by Kenny » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:25 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:From your history of posting, yes.
Now, I grant you that you have a basic understanding of what I like to call "sunday school theology" or "movie/tv theology".
Do you believe it is possible to understand what Christians believe, and still reject it?

Ken
Of course.
Understanding does not equal agreeing.
After all of our conversations if you believe I don’t understand the concept of eternal, rational, judgment, and all that other stuff you mentioned; there is nothing I can say to you now to convince you otherwise.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#73

Post by Kenny » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:25 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
However if I were to try this experiment now, the God I would make a case for would be similar to the one you worship, except he wouldn’t involve himself in human affairs. Sorta like planting a seed and just watching it grow without interference on his part. A God that chooses to remain hidden without any contact with his creation would make more sense to me.
Because you don't believe in free will?
No; because I DO believe in freewill.

ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#74

Post by Mallz » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:57 am

Kenny wrote: Actually when I mentioned God while speaking to you, I was referring to your concept of God; the God of the bible.
Why would you do that? I wasn't asking for that.
Kenny wrote: Don’t get me wrong; I do understand your position, as a Christian it makes perfect sense to see eternity and all that exists as evidence of God. But as an atheist..... well let me put it this way.
If I believed in Santa Clause, and I defined Santa as a man who makes toys in the North Pole for little kids, the very existence of toys would be evidence of Santa to me, but it would not be to you.
If you believe in God, and you defined God as someone eternal who created all that exist, the very existence of eternity and all that exist would be evidence of God to you, but it would not be for me.
You don't understand my position, nor even get a glimpse of my worldview. You put it backwards, I follow the evidence which reveals God (I wasn't Christian first). Your analogy of Santa Clause shows further you don't understand. Nor do I see God how you try and describe. I was trying to get you to stop conceptualizing God as 'the big guy in the sky,' so you actually could start to understand what I believe. Yet you resist and keep pulling form your preconceptions and fantasies and attribute that to what I believe.
And if that's all you needed to get evidence for belief of Santa, than I'd pity you. The fact you try to correlate that with God and my understanding of God continues to show you can't get beyond God being 'some dude in the sky', thinking that He's some being or the biggest one.

From my position, God could be the multiverse. You see the irony in that? As I said before, I care more about the reality of God than the identity of (yes after having the reality known, the identity follows as equally important). It's not that something eternal=YHWH. No, not at all. I care more about something from nothing vs something from something. Basics in life origins science. The something that everything comes from = God. Not, engery=eternal=God. Energy shows evidence of eternal something.
Kenny wrote:So you believe in the physical energy detectable and studied by science known to convert to matter, then there is another type of energy undetectable or studied by science that is responsible for all that exists? If this is correct I must ask why label the one not studied by science “energy”? If it isn’t physical or studied by science, why give it the same name of something that is?
However if I have misunderstood you, please explain where I’ve gone wrong.
Where did you get the 'another type of energy undetectable..' from? There are many forms of energy... How can I explain further?

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#75

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:23 am

Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
However if I were to try this experiment now, the God I would make a case for would be similar to the one you worship, except he wouldn’t involve himself in human affairs. Sorta like planting a seed and just watching it grow without interference on his part. A God that chooses to remain hidden without any contact with his creation would make more sense to me.
Because you don't believe in free will?
No; because I DO believe in freewill.

ken
So, because you believe in free will, you believe that IF a god exits that he would NOT involve himself in things that would effect free will, yes?

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