There is no Hope without Jesus

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
PaulSacramento
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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#31

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:30 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Hi Kenny, if I may ask:
What do you think happens to energy?
I am by no means an expert on the subject, but if I recall correctly, one of the laws of thermodynamics (can’t remember which one at the moment) states that energy can't be created nor destroyed. And energy can convert to mass, and mass can convert to energy.

Ken
So energy exists, infinitely?
An Answer to this would be nice...

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#32

Post by Kenny » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:54 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Hi Kenny, if I may ask:
What do you think happens to energy?
I am by no means an expert on the subject, but if I recall correctly, one of the laws of thermodynamics (can’t remember which one at the moment) states that energy can't be created nor destroyed. And energy can convert to mass, and mass can convert to energy.

Ken
So energy exists, infinitely?
An Answer to this would be nice...
The answer I gave you 3 days ago is the best answer I can give you; according to my understanding of the law of thermodynamics, I would assume so.

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#33

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:42 am

Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Hi Kenny, if I may ask:
What do you think happens to energy?
I am by no means an expert on the subject, but if I recall correctly, one of the laws of thermodynamics (can’t remember which one at the moment) states that energy can't be created nor destroyed. And energy can convert to mass, and mass can convert to energy.

Ken
So energy exists, infinitely?
An Answer to this would be nice...
The answer I gave you 3 days ago is the best answer I can give you; according to my understanding of the law of thermodynamics, I would assume so.
And, as a Mech Engineer, I can tell you that you are correct according to the law of Thermodynamics.
You realize the implication, yes?

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#34

Post by thatkidakayoungguy » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:22 am

God has energy. Energy came from God.
But when He made the creation, how did He give it energy? One could assume energy is infinite so if one part is taken for the creation then it is automatically refilled. What do you think?

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#35

Post by Kenny » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:31 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
I am by no means an expert on the subject, but if I recall correctly, one of the laws of thermodynamics (can’t remember which one at the moment) states that energy can't be created nor destroyed. And energy can convert to mass, and mass can convert to energy.

Ken
So energy exists, infinitely?
An Answer to this would be nice...
The answer I gave you 3 days ago is the best answer I can give you; according to my understanding of the law of thermodynamics, I would assume so.
And, as a Mech Engineer, I can tell you that you are correct according to the law of Thermodynamics.
You realize the implication, yes?
As a Christian, I'm sure you have implications; let's hear them.

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#36

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:10 pm

Kenny, if energy can NOT be created and can NOT be destroyed and exists infinitely as YOU state ( and the law of thermodynamics states) then eternity exists for what else is eternity if not infinity and what is infinity if not eternity?

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#37

Post by Kenny » Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:10 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:Kenny, if energy can NOT be created and can NOT be destroyed and exists infinitely as YOU state ( and the law of thermodynamics states) then eternity exists for what else is eternity if not infinity and what is infinity if not eternity?
Is this in reference to when I spoke of the "threat or promise of eternity"? If not, where are you getting at here?

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#38

Post by Mallz » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:54 pm

patrick wrote: This interests me. Could you summarize what you mean by it being exposed as a sin?
Clay will give you what was exposed in referenced book, but if you both don't mind, I'd like to enlighten you to how people casually blaspheme the Holy Spirit. The sin unto death is to deny truth, and enough is already in existence to lead people into the truth if they were to seek it out. To not seek it out, is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. A girl once overheard me talking to a friend (Atheist) and asked 'what about being neutral'? To which I responded there is no neutral, because there isn't. One either lives truthfully (in which this personal alignment to truth would naturally follow the genesis of it: God) or one lives delusional (following themselves/others, convincing themselves there is no God).

Now, what does Clay have to say? And how far off are my thoughts from his intent? :mrgreen:
And now that I have your attention, too, Clay. Why do you consider yourself a coward for living for the church instead of dying for it? I find it's a LOT harder to live and it takes much more courage to live day by day than to die for Him. In other words, It's much harder to die to Him day after day, than it is to die once for Him in faith.

@Kenny, Paradise isn't the end game. Cmon, man, pick up some things that we say over the years, yeah?
*Edit: Kenny, energy is eternal. Anything eternal show Gods presence. Stop thinking of God as some dude in the clouds looking down. Don't even relate God to the one revealed through the Torah, Jesus and NT. God is energy; He is light. Recognizing something eternal, even if you ground it physically, is still recognizing a source that brings about everything else, which is God. Whether you want to find out if this God has other characteristics is up to you (intelligence, personality, any sort of will, w/e).

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#39

Post by Kenny » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:14 pm

patrick wrote: @Kenny, Paradise isn't the end game. Cmon, man, pick up some things that we say over the years, yeah?
Perhaps it isn’t for you, but the person I was responding to seems to see it that way; judging from his response.
Mallz wrote:*Edit: Kenny, energy is eternal. Anything eternal show Gods presence.
That’s your belief not mine.
Mallz wrote:Stop thinking of God as some dude in the clouds looking down.
C’mon, man, pick up some things that I’ve said over the years, yeah?
Mallz wrote:Don't even relate God to the one revealed through the Torah, Jesus and NT. God is energy; He is light.
Oh so God is energy? God is light? As you know; energy and light does convert to matter; so is God material? spirit? both?

Ken

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#40

Post by Kurieuo » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:10 am

Kenny wrote:
Mallz wrote:Don't even relate God to the one revealed through the Torah, Jesus and NT. God is energy; He is light.
Oh so God is energy? God is light? As you know; energy and light does convert to matter; so is God material? spirit? both?
Kenny, I note in your posts to PaulS (and some exchanges we had years back), that you believe energy or matter to be the thing that has always existed. As I understand, you take the position that energy (or something physical/material-like) is foundational to everything else that exists.

I've since become a bit more familiar with Aquinas' works and see an opportunity to continue such discussion with new knowledge. For with Aquinas (and even Aristotle), much ado is made about potentiality and change, and when applied to energy we see that even infinite energy requires something to move it, if it indeed can be transformed into matter (or something else).

We might say "energy" is infinite. Yet, in response to Mallz you say that "energy" has potential to be converted into matter. As I understand this is correct and what science says. My question then is who/what is the actor acting upon infinite energy to move (convert) it into matter? You see, while you/we might ascribe infiniteness to something like energy, such doesn't remove the need for it to have a cause if it has potentiality to change.

As a side, quantum experiments have shown an observer is needed to have photons behave like matter (particles), otherwise a wave effect is had. Therefore, it seems that we don't just need energy, but also consciousness of some sort to move (convert) energy into matter. In other words, consciousness acting upon energy appears necessary to actualise its potential form of matter. Whether such consciousness is eternally inherent in the fabric of nature/the universe, or belongs to some super intelligent being like God as Jews/Christians believe, it seems to me science proves materialism/physicalism fails.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#41

Post by Mallz » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:24 am

Kenny wrote:
Mallz wrote:*Edit: Kenny, energy is eternal. Anything eternal show Gods presence.
That’s your belief not mine.
What is your belief?
Mallz wrote:Stop thinking of God as some dude in the clouds looking down.
C’mon, man, pick up some things that I’ve said over the years, yeah?
Then please correct my misconceptions. What is God, beyond a personal identity? The basics? (could even be the multiverse)
Mallz wrote:Don't even relate God to the one revealed through the Torah, Jesus and NT. God is energy; He is light.
Oh so God is energy? God is light? As you know; energy and light does convert to matter; so is God material? spirit? both?
God is energy and all that exists appears from Him and we exist in Him and He could displace this energy holding existence together and everything would perish. Forming matter from light, creating from energy. God isn't material, nor is He His creations, yet He is present in subset of it all.

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#42

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:30 am

Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Kenny, if energy can NOT be created and can NOT be destroyed and exists infinitely as YOU state ( and the law of thermodynamics states) then eternity exists for what else is eternity if not infinity and what is infinity if not eternity?
Is this in reference to when I spoke of the "threat or promise of eternity"? If not, where are you getting at here?
You said you don't believe in eternity.

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#43

Post by Kenny » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:45 am

Kurieuo wrote: As a side, quantum experiments have shown an observer is needed to have photons behave like matter (particles), otherwise a wave effect is had. Therefore, it seems that we don't just need energy, but also consciousness of some sort to move (convert) energy into matter. In other words, consciousness acting upon energy appears necessary to actualise its potential form of matter. Whether such consciousness is eternally inherent in the fabric of nature/the universe, or belongs to some super intelligent being like God as Jews/Christians believe, it seems to me science proves materialism/physicalism fails.
Are you sure consciousness is required to move/convert energy into matter? Or is this just speculation on your part because based on what we know it seems to make sense.

Ken

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#44

Post by Kenny » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:45 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Kenny, if energy can NOT be created and can NOT be destroyed and exists infinitely as YOU state ( and the law of thermodynamics states) then eternity exists for what else is eternity if not infinity and what is infinity if not eternity?
Is this in reference to when I spoke of the "threat or promise of eternity"? If not, where are you getting at here?
You said you don't believe in eternity.
What was the context of which I said this?

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#45

Post by Kenny » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:54 am

Kenny wrote:
Mallz wrote:*Edit: Kenny, energy is eternal. Anything eternal show Gods presence.
That’s your belief not mine.
Mallz wrote: What is your belief?
That eternal does not show God's presence
Mallz wrote:Stop thinking of God as some dude in the clouds looking down.
C’mon, man, pick up some things that I’ve said over the years, yeah?
Mallz wrote: Then please correct my misconceptions. What is God, beyond a personal identity? The basics? (could even be the multiverse)
I don't believe in God.
Mallz wrote:Don't even relate God to the one revealed through the Torah, Jesus and NT. God is energy; He is light.
Oh so God is energy? God is light? As you know; energy and light does convert to matter; so is God material? spirit? both?
Mallz wrote: God is energy and all that exists appears from Him and we exist in Him and He could displace this energy holding existence together and everything would perish. Forming matter from light, creating from energy. God isn't material, nor is He His creations, yet He is present in subset of it all.
Do you believe energy converts to matter, and visa versa?

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