There is no Hope without Jesus

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 8413
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada
Has liked: 101 times
Been liked: 298 times

Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#211

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:16 am

Ken,m if you don't have any choice in what you believe , how can your view be considered reasonable and rational?
I mean, you are't rationalizing things and then choosing to believe the evidence and facts, at least not according to what you are saying.
You are saying you have no choice in what you believe, so you have no choice as to what you believe is right and wrong and as such, by your logic of thinking, you have no choice in what you choose to do and as such, have no responsibility for your actions, correct?

Kenny
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2982
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:17 pm
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Has liked: 3 times
Been liked: 66 times

Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#212

Post by Kenny » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:14 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:Ken,m if you don't have any choice in what you believe , how can your view be considered reasonable and rational?
Belief happens after reason and logic demands it.
PaulSacramento wrote: I mean, you are't rationalizing things and then choosing to believe the evidence and facts, at least not according to what you are saying.
Right. If I were choosing to believe evidence and facts, that would mean I would be able to choose NOT to believe the evidence and facts. As I said before, I cannot choose to believe something I know is not true
PaulSacramento wrote: You are saying you have no choice in what you believe, so you have no choice as to what you believe is right and wrong and as such, by your logic of thinking, you have no choice in what you choose to do and as such, have no responsibility for your actions, correct?
No; actions are different. I can know right and still choose to do wrong. I think it was James in your Bible who said something about; he who knows right and chooses it not for him it is a sin.

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 8413
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada
Has liked: 101 times
Been liked: 298 times

Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#213

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:20 am

Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Ken,m if you don't have any choice in what you believe , how can your view be considered reasonable and rational?
Belief happens after reason and logic demands it.
PaulSacramento wrote: I mean, you are't rationalizing things and then choosing to believe the evidence and facts, at least not according to what you are saying.
Right. If I were choosing to believe evidence and facts, that would mean I would be able to choose NOT to believe the evidence and facts. As I said before, I cannot choose to believe something I know is not true
PaulSacramento wrote: You are saying you have no choice in what you believe, so you have no choice as to what you believe is right and wrong and as such, by your logic of thinking, you have no choice in what you choose to do and as such, have no responsibility for your actions, correct?
No; actions are different. I can know right and still choose to do wrong. I think it was James in your Bible who said something about; he who knows right and chooses it not for him it is a sin.
Ken, you are ALL OVER the place.
If belief is driven by logic and reason then belief is a choice.
You choose to believe that something is evidence and fact and you do so by logic and reasoning ken.
You can't say that you don't choose to believe is something is a fact because for you to accept it as a fact you have evaluated the evidence and then used logic and reasoning, which, as you point out, leads to belief which leads you to believing the evidence and facts as true.

Kenny
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2982
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:17 pm
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Has liked: 3 times
Been liked: 66 times

Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#214

Post by Kenny » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:24 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Ken,m if you don't have any choice in what you believe , how can your view be considered reasonable and rational?
Belief happens after reason and logic demands it.
PaulSacramento wrote: I mean, you are't rationalizing things and then choosing to believe the evidence and facts, at least not according to what you are saying.
Right. If I were choosing to believe evidence and facts, that would mean I would be able to choose NOT to believe the evidence and facts. As I said before, I cannot choose to believe something I know is not true
PaulSacramento wrote: You are saying you have no choice in what you believe, so you have no choice as to what you believe is right and wrong and as such, by your logic of thinking, you have no choice in what you choose to do and as such, have no responsibility for your actions, correct?
No; actions are different. I can know right and still choose to do wrong. I think it was James in your Bible who said something about; he who knows right and chooses it not for him it is a sin.
Ken, you are ALL OVER the place.
If belief is driven by logic and reason then belief is a choice.
You choose to believe that something is evidence and fact and you do so by logic and reasoning ken.
You can't say that you don't choose to believe is something is a fact because for you to accept it as a fact you have evaluated the evidence and then used logic and reasoning, which, as you point out, leads to belief which leads you to believing the evidence and facts as true.
Could you choose to believe something is true when reason and logic tells you it is not?

User avatar
Kurieuo
Technical Admin
Posts: 9660
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 6:25 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Progressive Creationist
Location: Qld, Australia
Has liked: 590 times
Been liked: 611 times

Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#215

Post by Kurieuo » Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:43 pm

And logic and reason come from the brain. Call me a sucker, but I believe anything my brain tells me, because well, it (along with the rest of my body) is ME. So I'll believe whatever ME tells me to believe, right? No circularity whatsoever to see here. y=; Move along.
These users liked this post by Kurieuo:
Nicki (Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:39 pm)
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

___________________

Image

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 8413
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada
Has liked: 101 times
Been liked: 298 times

Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#216

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:51 am

Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Ken,m if you don't have any choice in what you believe , how can your view be considered reasonable and rational?
Belief happens after reason and logic demands it.
PaulSacramento wrote: I mean, you are't rationalizing things and then choosing to believe the evidence and facts, at least not according to what you are saying.
Right. If I were choosing to believe evidence and facts, that would mean I would be able to choose NOT to believe the evidence and facts. As I said before, I cannot choose to believe something I know is not true
PaulSacramento wrote: You are saying you have no choice in what you believe, so you have no choice as to what you believe is right and wrong and as such, by your logic of thinking, you have no choice in what you choose to do and as such, have no responsibility for your actions, correct?
No; actions are different. I can know right and still choose to do wrong. I think it was James in your Bible who said something about; he who knows right and chooses it not for him it is a sin.
Ken, you are ALL OVER the place.
If belief is driven by logic and reason then belief is a choice.
You choose to believe that something is evidence and fact and you do so by logic and reasoning ken.
You can't say that you don't choose to believe is something is a fact because for you to accept it as a fact you have evaluated the evidence and then used logic and reasoning, which, as you point out, leads to belief which leads you to believing the evidence and facts as true.
Could you choose to believe something is true when reason and logic tells you it is not?

I can't believe anyone is this obtuse.
If you have no choice in what you believe Kenny, then whatever you believe can't be based on rational thought, which requires you to CHOOSE to believe the data presented to you. Don't you understand that very basic logic ??
The very act of choosing data A over B is a CHOICE.
The very act of believing the evidence presented, is a choice.

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 19908
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kamino
Has liked: 173 times
Been liked: 961 times

Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#217

Post by RickD » Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:14 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Ken,m if you don't have any choice in what you believe , how can your view be considered reasonable and rational?
Belief happens after reason and logic demands it.
PaulSacramento wrote: I mean, you are't rationalizing things and then choosing to believe the evidence and facts, at least not according to what you are saying.
Right. If I were choosing to believe evidence and facts, that would mean I would be able to choose NOT to believe the evidence and facts. As I said before, I cannot choose to believe something I know is not true
PaulSacramento wrote: You are saying you have no choice in what you believe, so you have no choice as to what you believe is right and wrong and as such, by your logic of thinking, you have no choice in what you choose to do and as such, have no responsibility for your actions, correct?
No; actions are different. I can know right and still choose to do wrong. I think it was James in your Bible who said something about; he who knows right and chooses it not for him it is a sin.
Ken, you are ALL OVER the place.
If belief is driven by logic and reason then belief is a choice.
You choose to believe that something is evidence and fact and you do so by logic and reasoning ken.
You can't say that you don't choose to believe is something is a fact because for you to accept it as a fact you have evaluated the evidence and then used logic and reasoning, which, as you point out, leads to belief which leads you to believing the evidence and facts as true.
Could you choose to believe something is true when reason and logic tells you it is not?

I can't believe anyone is this obtuse.
If you have no choice in what you believe Kenny, then whatever you believe can't be based on rational thought, which requires you to CHOOSE to believe the data presented to you. Don't you understand that very basic logic ??
The very act of choosing data A over B is a CHOICE.
The very act of believing the evidence presented, is a choice.
Here's an old thread on this subject:
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... ice+belief
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 8413
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada
Has liked: 101 times
Been liked: 298 times

Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#218

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:36 am

Oh crap, I had forgotten that painful thread.

It's threads like that one that make me thinking that everyone should have to take a philosophy 101 course and understand basic arguments of what belief actually is and not what they think or want it to be.

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 8413
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada
Has liked: 101 times
Been liked: 298 times

Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#219

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:44 am

I mean, here is the definition:

be·lief
bəˈlēf/Submit
noun
1.
an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"
2.
trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.


To say that one doesn't choose what they believe in means that they have no choice in what they accept and I don't think people truly understand what it means to stated that.
To state that you have no choice in what you believe is to state that you have NOT come to your conclusions via your own understanding but that they were somehow forced upon you and you had to accept them,period.

I think people that believe this view ( oh the irony of believing without choice, lol) are those that don't want the responsibility of their views.
No choice means no free will, no free will means no responsibility and no responsibility means no judgment.
Which of course leads to no laws.

Can you imagine a person being triad for an act that they had NO CHOICE in doing ??

The Law is ALL about responsibility for one's action and that means that a person CHOOSE what they do, which is directed, of course, by their CHOICE in what they believe SHOULD and OUGHT to be done.

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 19908
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kamino
Has liked: 173 times
Been liked: 961 times

Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#220

Post by RickD » Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:12 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:I mean, here is the definition:

be·lief
bəˈlēf/Submit
noun
1.
an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"
2.
trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.


To say that one doesn't choose what they believe in means that they have no choice in what they accept and I don't think people truly understand what it means to stated that.
To state that you have no choice in what you believe is to state that you have NOT come to your conclusions via your own understanding but that they were somehow forced upon you and you had to accept them,period.

I think people that believe this view ( oh the irony of believing without choice, lol) are those that don't want the responsibility of their views.
No choice means no free will, no free will means no responsibility and no responsibility means no judgment.
Which of course leads to no laws.

Can you imagine a person being triad for an act that they had NO CHOICE in doing ??

The Law is ALL about responsibility for one's action and that means that a person CHOOSE what they do, which is directed, of course, by their CHOICE in what they believe SHOULD and OUGHT to be done.
You're preaching to the choir. I don't understand the other side of this debate.

Even Jac was arguing that we don't choose what we believe. Which is strange coming from him, because of his free grace beliefs. Jac has said numerous times, and I completely agree, that the "believe" in John 3:16, is trust. If we don't choose to believe/trust in Christ for salvation, what exactly does that say?
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 8413
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada
Has liked: 101 times
Been liked: 298 times

Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#221

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:31 pm

And if we don't choose what to believe in based on the available evidence, how does one decide on anything ??

I really don't think that deniers of free will and choice take their conclusions to their natural and inevitable end and that is why they get surprised by things like communism for example.

Kenny
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2982
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:17 pm
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Has liked: 3 times
Been liked: 66 times

Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#222

Post by Kenny » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:17 pm

Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Ken,m if you don't have any choice in what you believe , how can your view be considered reasonable and rational?
Belief happens after reason and logic demands it.
PaulSacramento wrote: I mean, you are't rationalizing things and then choosing to believe the evidence and facts, at least not according to what you are saying.
Right. If I were choosing to believe evidence and facts, that would mean I would be able to choose NOT to believe the evidence and facts. As I said before, I cannot choose to believe something I know is not true
PaulSacramento wrote: You are saying you have no choice in what you believe, so you have no choice as to what you believe is right and wrong and as such, by your logic of thinking, you have no choice in what you choose to do and as such, have no responsibility for your actions, correct?
No; actions are different. I can know right and still choose to do wrong. I think it was James in your Bible who said something about; he who knows right and chooses it not for him it is a sin.
Ken, you are ALL OVER the place.
If belief is driven by logic and reason then belief is a choice.
You choose to believe that something is evidence and fact and you do so by logic and reasoning ken.
You can't say that you don't choose to believe is something is a fact because for you to accept it as a fact you have evaluated the evidence and then used logic and reasoning, which, as you point out, leads to belief which leads you to believing the evidence and facts as true.
Could you choose to believe something is true when reason and logic tells you it is not?
PaulSacramento wrote: I can't believe anyone is this obtuse.
Funny I was kinda thinkin' the same thing myself
PaulSacramento wrote: If you have no choice in what you believe Kenny, then whatever you believe can't be based on rational thought,
No; rational though is what determines what I believe. Rational thought does not leave me the option of choice
PaulSacramento wrote: which requires you to CHOOSE to believe the data presented to you.
I cannot choose to believe something I know is not true. If the data makes sense to me, there is not option of denial
PaulSacramento wrote: Don't you understand that very basic logic ??
Don't confuse my disagreement with a lack of understanding
PaulSacramento wrote: The very act of choosing data A over B is a CHOICE.
that would mean I have the option of choosing A over B, or B over A independent of the evidence presented. Again; I cannot choose B when I know A is correct.
PaulSacramento wrote: The very act of believing the evidence presented, is a choice.
So how about answering my original question; could you choose to believe something you know is not true?

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 19908
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kamino
Has liked: 173 times
Been liked: 961 times

Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#223

Post by RickD » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:04 pm

kenny wrote:
So how about answering my original question; could you choose to believe something you know is not true?
Kenny, the question as asked is paradoxical. It's an absurdity.

By asking, "Could you choose to believe something you know is not true", is like asking if you could choose to believe something you don't believe.

By definition, belief in something presupposes that you have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability of whatever is the object of your belief.
These users liked this post by RickD:
PaulSacramento (Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:40 am)
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

Nils
Established Member
Posts: 238
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:51 pm
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Location: Sweden
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 5 times

Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#224

Post by Nils » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:15 pm

Paul and Kurieuo,

If I didn't know better the discussion seems to indicate that you don't believe in free will.
PaulSacramento wrote:If belief is driven by logic and reason then belief is a choice.
You choose to believe that something is evidence and fact and you do so by logic and reasoning ken.
You can't say that you don't choose to believe is something is a fact because for you to accept it as a fact you have evaluated the evidence and then used logic and reasoning, which, as you point out, leads to belief which leads you to believing the evidence and facts as true.
I agree that you sometimes chose to believe in some things but my question is why you chose as you do. Reasonably, that depends upon who you are, how you reason, what your beliefs and desires are, your memories, your values and preferences including the external world. When you make a decision you bring in all aspects of you as a person and choose accordingly. Then, could you have chosen differently? Apparently you could have chosen in another way if something in you or the world had been different. But if not, how could you choose different? Say that at time t1 you and the outside wold are in some way, reasons, beliefs etc. Then you start evaluate the reasons for a decision that you make a few seconds later at time t2. If we now ask God to restart the world as it was at t1, would you then decide differently at t2? If you say yes I will ask you why? What has changed from the first to the second time you decided. Both times at t1 you and the world were exactly the same so your decision would be the same at t2, at least if the world is deterministic. If the world is indeterministic some chancy event may have occurred between t1 and t2 which caused you to choose differently the second time but then the reason that you made a different decision the second time was not up to you, it was just a matter of chance.
Kurieuo wrote:And logic and reason come from the brain. Call me a sucker, but I believe anything my brain tells me, because well, it (along with the rest of my body) is ME. So I'll believe whatever ME tells me to believe, right? No circularity whatsoever to see here.
Yes, exactly. Your ME is as it is at t1 and determines what you decide to choose at t2.

The bottom line is that we don't have a free will in a basic sense. From introspection it seems that we can choose as we want. We are free to decide whatever we want. But from an external perspective it is evident that we can only decide in one way (not regarding indeterminacy now). When we say that we are free to decide whatever we want we don't notice that there is only one thing we want, given a complete picture of the circumstances, internal and external.

Therefore I think that the current discussion is of less interest. My decision or choice is always determined by the totality of circumstances, internal and external and I can't chose otherwise.

I have not read the last five or so comments, I have to do that later.

Nils

User avatar
Kurieuo
Technical Admin
Posts: 9660
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 6:25 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Progressive Creationist
Location: Qld, Australia
Has liked: 590 times
Been liked: 611 times

Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#225

Post by Kurieuo » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:42 pm

Nils, yes, I'd agree with much of what Sam Harris says that free will is illusory. We have no real agency, not to the extent that we can rise above external and physical influences to do other than what we're predisposed to do by such influences.

We're just in for the ride really, like Spinoza's stones being thrown:
  • conceive, I beg, that a stone, while continuing in motion, should be capable of thinking and knowing, that it is endeavoring, as far as it can, to continue to move. Such a stone, being conscious merely of its own endeavor and not at all indifferent, would believe itself to be completely free, and would think that it continued in motion solely because of its own wish. This is that human freedom, which all boast that they possess, and which consists solely in the fact, that men are conscious of their own desire, but are ignorant of the causes whereby that desire has been determined.
PS. Trust your knowing better. ;) ;)
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

___________________

Image

Post Reply