Working with your own hypothetical theology of the way God ought to be (since you consider the one Christians believe in as immoral or something for not making salvation a matter of our own works), of course if a person doesn't believe an all-good God exists then they won't believe condemnation awaits. But, you are the one hypothetically entertaining God's existence and the way He should be as a reason for rejecting the God Christians believe.Kenny wrote:No.Kurieuo wrote:Ken, in your hypothetical theology (given you do not believe in God), could you seriously ever change to be "good enough" for God?
NoKurieuo wrote:What then of your past wrongs, can you ever remove such from your record?
Unless God either lowers his standards for us due to our imperfections, or he chooses to forgive us, we would be condemned.Kurieuo wrote:Consider if you believe God is all-good, as you must if you see God ought to desire us to be good also (whcih I agree with you on), then God requires us to really be Good. To the extent that Jesus understood "good" when He declared noone is good by God. If this is true, then wouldn't we all stand condemned?I can understand believers, but why would non-believers think condemnation awaits them?Kurieuo wrote:God must logically condemn us all, since none of us are really good. We've all done wrong no matter how big or small.
Perhaps then, belief in God or not, we should simply enjoy our lives here since condemnation awaits us all.
I find it interesting that the God you seem to hypothetically entertain to replace the Christian one, is nonetheless one that ought to be good. And then with that, we'd each be unable to attain God's good standard via our own past, present and future actions in life. That then, unless there is another way, we would be condemned.
It is further interesting this other way you present is one of God lowering His standards or forgiving us. For, the God Christians believe in lowered Himself being found in human form (Jesus), associated Himself with humanity and suffered for doing so. God, who I and many other Christians believe in, knew we could never attain His perfectly good standard ourselves, so He took on human form and became the goodness humanity couldn't attain. So that in Him, we humans who are each sinful could be redeemed via His own goodness.
Now Christ's mysterious final act on the cross before giving up his life was, "Father forgive them." Tell me, if Christ being good, fulfilling all demands God's righteousness entails, paid a punishment of death reserved for those who do wrong, then surely rightness demands Christ Himself is owed? I see that Christ is owed something. Yet, Christ's request was to forgive those who aren't righteous, who even put Him to death. What is Righteousness then to do?
In Christ we see God's rightousness pitted against itself in an amazing way, a way that finally allows grace and forgiveness to be had and overflow so that we can be with God, however it is only through Christ. It's like the loophole of loopholes every lawyer dreams of when trying to get their client off the hook. Consider it false if you like, it's a beautiful story and nonetheless a coherent one that I see provides a solution to our predicament with God (given God exists) where none of us are good. If there was a way to be made right with God, who is all-good, then Christianity as I see provides the only logical hope.
Such is also the reason why the Gospels are "good news" (i.e., gospel). For they describe the good news Christ brings, that God who is all-righteous doesn't desire to judge and condemn us, but preferred to offer grace and forgiveness. And they detail how this is supposedly accomplished, and it is in this promise found in Jesus' own teachings and life that Christians hope in. If our hope is in vain, then we all will stand condemned and we're probably to be pitied most in life.