Are You Are Skeptic or In Denial?

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
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Byblos
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Re: Are You Are Skeptic or In Denial?

#16

Post by Byblos » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:40 am

Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:You don't have faith in anything other than what your eyes see?
In the context of the conversation, eyes means experience empirically.
Good. Now please empirically prove that you just had that thought.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: Are You Are Skeptic or In Denial?

#17

Post by Kenny » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:40 am

Byblos wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:You don't have faith in anything other than what your eyes see?
In the context of the conversation, eyes means experience empirically.
Good. Now please empirically prove that you just had that thought.
To your satisfaction? Or mine.

Ken

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Re: Are You Are Skeptic or In Denial?

#18

Post by RickD » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:54 am

Kenny wrote:
Byblos wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:You don't have faith in anything other than what your eyes see?
In the context of the conversation, eyes means experience empirically.
Good. Now please empirically prove that you just had that thought.
To your satisfaction? Or mine.

Ken
I'd personally be content with your satisfaction. If your burden for empirical evidence is as high as it is for burden of proof you need for God, it's probably higher than most of ours.

Unless Byblos says otherwise, go with yours. I'm definitely interested.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
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St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Are You Are Skeptic or In Denial?

#19

Post by Kenny » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:31 am

RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Byblos wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:You don't have faith in anything other than what your eyes see?
In the context of the conversation, eyes means experience empirically.
Good. Now please empirically prove that you just had that thought.
To your satisfaction? Or mine.

Ken
I'd personally be content with your satisfaction. If your burden for empirical evidence is as high as it is for burden of proof you need for God, it's probably higher than most of ours.

Unless Byblos says otherwise, go with yours. I'm definitely interested.
Okay; so you would like me to prove empirically to my satisfaction, that I just had a thought?
Empirical means to learn from observation and experimentation; so I don’t think my thoughts are something that can be proven empirically, but because I know what is going on in my head, I know my thoughts are my own.

Ken

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Re: Are You Are Skeptic or In Denial?

#20

Post by RickD » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:13 pm

Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Byblos wrote:
Kenny wrote: In the context of the conversation, eyes means experience empirically.
Good. Now please empirically prove that you just had that thought.
To your satisfaction? Or mine.

Ken
I'd personally be content with your satisfaction. If your burden for empirical evidence is as high as it is for burden of proof you need for God, it's probably higher than most of ours.

Unless Byblos says otherwise, go with yours. I'm definitely interested.
Okay; so you would like me to prove empirically to my satisfaction, that I just had a thought?
Empirical means to learn from observation and experimentation; so I don’t think my thoughts are something that can be proven empirically, but because I know what is going on in my head, I know my thoughts are my own.

Ken
If your thoughts can't be proven empirically, going from what you said here, how can you have any faith in your own thoughts? Taking your logic to its conclusion, your thoughts are meaningless, correct?
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Are You Are Skeptic or In Denial?

#21

Post by Kenny » Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:11 pm

Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Byblos wrote:
Good. Now please empirically prove that you just had that thought.
To your satisfaction? Or mine.

Ken
I'd personally be content with your satisfaction. If your burden for empirical evidence is as high as it is for burden of proof you need for God, it's probably higher than most of ours.

Unless Byblos says otherwise, go with yours. I'm definitely interested.
Okay; so you would like me to prove empirically to my satisfaction, that I just had a thought?
Empirical means to learn from observation and experimentation; so I don’t think my thoughts are something that can be proven empirically, but because I know what is going on in my head, I know my thoughts are my own.

Ken
RickD wrote: If your thoughts can't be proven empirically, going from what you said here,
What I was talking about then, was things with an actual existence. Thoughts are imaginary; they only exist in your head; they don't have an actual existence, thus they can't be proven empirically.
RickD wrote: how can you have any faith in your own thoughts?
Because I cannot think of any reason not to.
RickD wrote: Taking your logic to its conclusion, your thoughts are meaningless, correct?
No.

Ken

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Re: Are You Are Skeptic or In Denial?

#22

Post by RickD » Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:28 pm

kenny wrote:
What I was talking about then, was things with an actual existence. Thoughts are imaginary; they only exist in your head; they don't have an actual existence, thus they can't be proven empirically.
Kenny,

I really wish you would think about what you're saying here. Think of the implications. Think where this kind of logic leads.

You said earlier that you can only trust what you can test empirically. You need to understand what you're saying. Really understand it.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Are You Are Skeptic or In Denial?

#23

Post by Kenny » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:23 pm

RickD wrote:
kenny wrote:
What I was talking about then, was things with an actual existence. Thoughts are imaginary; they only exist in your head; they don't have an actual existence, thus they can't be proven empirically.
Kenny,

I really wish you would think about what you're saying here. Think of the implications. Think where this kind of logic leads.

You said earlier that you can only trust what you can test empirically. You need to understand what you're saying. Really understand it.
Fair enough. Someone made the point that God wants us to believe in him via faith; not empirical means, and I replied faith doesn’t work for me (or the guy in the video) we require empirical means. Now at this point I was not claiming I only believe in that which can be tested empirically, there is lots of stuff that can’t be tested empirically; thoughts, emotions, ideas etc. stuff that exist in our heads; I was only referring to what is said about God.

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Re: Are You Are Skeptic or In Denial?

#24

Post by Byblos » Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:32 am

Kenny wrote:
Byblos wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:You don't have faith in anything other than what your eyes see?
In the context of the conversation, eyes means experience empirically.
Good. Now please empirically prove that you just had that thought.
To your satisfaction? Or mine.

Ken
Huh? And here I thought empirical was objective. But then again, look who I'm talking to. :shakehead:
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: Are You Are Skeptic or In Denial?

#25

Post by Byblos » Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:36 am

Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote:
kenny wrote:
What I was talking about then, was things with an actual existence. Thoughts are imaginary; they only exist in your head; they don't have an actual existence, thus they can't be proven empirically.
Kenny,

I really wish you would think about what you're saying here. Think of the implications. Think where this kind of logic leads.

You said earlier that you can only trust what you can test empirically. You need to understand what you're saying. Really understand it.
Fair enough. Someone made the point that God wants us to believe in him via faith; not empirical means, and I replied faith doesn’t work for me (or the guy in the video) we require empirical means. Now at this point I was not claiming I only believe in that which can be tested empirically, there is lots of stuff that can’t be tested empirically; thoughts, emotions, ideas etc. stuff that exist in our heads; I was only referring to what is said about God.

:pound: :pound: :pound: :pound: :pound: :pound: :pound:

Amazing how you pick and choose where your yardstick applies and where it doesn't. It's .... almost .... like.....completely........................arbitrary. :mrgreen:
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: Are You Are Skeptic or In Denial?

#26

Post by Kenny » Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:31 am

Byblos wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Byblos wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:You don't have faith in anything other than what your eyes see?
In the context of the conversation, eyes means experience empirically.
Good. Now please empirically prove that you just had that thought.
To your satisfaction? Or mine.

Ken
Huh? And here I thought empirical was objective. But then again, look who I'm talking to. :shakehead:
Yes empirical is objective. The reason it sounds kind of silly is because the question that was asked of me was rather silly. I was asked to prove empirically that I have thoughts. Obviously thoughts aren’t empirical so in my response I sorta dismissed the empirical part of the question when I responded. Perhaps I should have dismissed the question the way you guys do when someone asks if God could create a rock too big for him to lift

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Re: Are You Are Skeptic or In Denial?

#27

Post by Kenny » Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:32 am

Byblos wrote:
Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote:
kenny wrote:
What I was talking about then, was things with an actual existence. Thoughts are imaginary; they only exist in your head; they don't have an actual existence, thus they can't be proven empirically.
Kenny,

I really wish you would think about what you're saying here. Think of the implications. Think where this kind of logic leads.

You said earlier that you can only trust what you can test empirically. You need to understand what you're saying. Really understand it.
Fair enough. Someone made the point that God wants us to believe in him via faith; not empirical means, and I replied faith doesn’t work for me (or the guy in the video) we require empirical means. Now at this point I was not claiming I only believe in that which can be tested empirically, there is lots of stuff that can’t be tested empirically; thoughts, emotions, ideas etc. stuff that exist in our heads; I was only referring to what is said about God.

:pound: :pound: :pound: :pound: :pound: :pound: :pound:

Amazing how you pick and choose where your yardstick applies and where it doesn't. It's .... almost .... like.....completely........................arbitrary. :mrgreen:
So you see me as being inconsistent because I acknowledge the existence of thoughts and other things that exist in our heads which is non material, but I don’t acknowledge the existence of God and spirits which is also non material. Is this correct?

Ken

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Re: Are You Are Skeptic or In Denial?

#28

Post by Byblos » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:40 pm

Kenny wrote:So you see me as being inconsistent because I acknowledge the existence of thoughts and other things that exist in our heads which is non material, but I don’t acknowledge the existence of God and spirits which is also non material. Is this correct?
It may lead to that but it's much more basic than that. It is that you acknowledge the existence of the immaterial without even giving a single thought to its implications.

If you're really interested in having a discussion on the topic of immateriality I would suggest that you read the below link first then come back with questions/rebuttals. And if not, I really have neither the time nor the inclination to have yet another fruitless discussion with you.

The mind-body problem.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: Are You Are Skeptic or In Denial?

#29

Post by Kenny » Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:16 pm

Kenny wrote:So you see me as being inconsistent because I acknowledge the existence of thoughts and other things that exist in our heads which is non material, but I don’t acknowledge the existence of God and spirits which is also non material. Is this correct?
Byblos wrote: It may lead to that but it's much more basic than that. It is that you acknowledge the existence of the immaterial without even giving a single thought to its implications.
What are these implications? I’m not being facetious, others have asked me to consider the implications when I’ve expressed how I perceive things, but they don't seem do a good job of expressing what these implications are! So by all means, what are these implications that you speak of?
Byblos wrote: If you're really interested in having a discussion on the topic of immateriality I would suggest that you read the below link first then come back with questions/rebuttals. And if not, I really have neither the time nor the inclination to have yet another fruitless discussion with you.

The mind-body problem.
Fruitless discussions? Wow! Well its not like I just came up and began imposing my unsolicited ideas and perspectives upon you, If I recall correctly, I was having a conversation with someone else when you began offering your perspective. I was pretty much just replying to the questions you asked me. If you see our conversations as fruitless, perhaps this is something you should keep in mind next time you are tempted to ask me questions.

Ken

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Re: Are You Are Skeptic or In Denial?

#30

Post by Byblos » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:33 am

Kenny wrote:
Kenny wrote:So you see me as being inconsistent because I acknowledge the existence of thoughts and other things that exist in our heads which is non material, but I don’t acknowledge the existence of God and spirits which is also non material. Is this correct?
Byblos wrote: It may lead to that but it's much more basic than that. It is that you acknowledge the existence of the immaterial without even giving a single thought to its implications.
What are these implications? I’m not being facetious, others have asked me to consider the implications when I’ve expressed how I perceive things, but they don't seem do a good job of expressing what these implications are! So by all means, what are these implications that you speak of?
One step at a time.
Kenny wrote:
Byblos wrote: If you're really interested in having a discussion on the topic of immateriality I would suggest that you read the below link first then come back with questions/rebuttals. And if not, I really have neither the time nor the inclination to have yet another fruitless discussion with you.

The mind-body problem.
Fruitless discussions? Wow! Well its not like I just came up and began imposing my unsolicited ideas and perspectives upon you, If I recall correctly, I was having a conversation with someone else when you began offering your perspective. I was pretty much just replying to the questions you asked me. If you see our conversations as fruitless, perhaps this is something you should keep in mind next time you are tempted to ask me questions.

Ken
You know very well I am referring to the countless discussions we've had over the years. I'm just not very hopeful this one will lead anywhere either and that's certainly not because we've somehow reached a stalemate.

And you didn't answer my question. Are you really interested in having a fruitful discussion about immateriality? If yes, start with the link and come back to me. If not, please go ahead and carry on with your diversions, err discussions with others.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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