The meaning of immaterial life

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
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Re: The meaning of immaterial life

#121

Post by Nessa » Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:23 pm

Kenny wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Nessa wrote:
Kenny wrote: Their value only temporarily decrease with me. Their value in the eyes of everyone else remains the same.

Ken
So If I strongly dislike my kid today, then their value to me temporarily decreases?
Can’t say how things work for you, but for me I don’t love my loved ones one minute, hate them the next, then go back to loving them later; it doesn't work for me that way. I may be angry at them one moment then happy the next, but when I am angry, I don’t hate them I still love them thus their value to me remains the same. How about you? Do you only love and value others because God instructs you to? Or are you capable of finding value in others on your own?

Ken
Nessa wrote: We are talking about feelings alone. No one can have feelings of love constantly for another all the time, in my opinion. We are human and humans always fall short. Not all the time though and some more than others.
Are you confusing the feeling of love for someone with the feeling of happiness with them, and the feeling of hatred towards someone with being angry at them?
Nessa wrote: I can find value in people on my own but it's subjective and like basing an opinion on shifting sands depending on how I feel that day. WHY do you think the divorce rate is so high? Sometimes because people fall out of love and don't necessarily care to find their way back
So is it fair to say the only reason you value and love some people is because God tells you to?
Nessa wrote: Ultimately love is a choice I make. Which is grounded on substance and not just whims
Feelings aren't based on whims; at least for me they are not.
Nessa wrote: Are you confusing the knowledge of love as being the same as a feeling?
I've never heard of love described as a knowledge. Please explain.

K
You know you love someone because you are choosing to love them e.g your actions show love. And you may feel love too.

Knowledge is understanding you are loving them through choice regardless of how you necessarily feel.

Feelings are feelings. I am not saying they aren't meaningful. But I am also not saying they are necessarily a good way to know the truth. Our feelings are always subjective in my opinion.

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Re: The meaning of immaterial life

#122

Post by Kenny » Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:36 pm

Nessa wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Nessa wrote: So If I strongly dislike my kid today, then their value to me temporarily decreases?
Can’t say how things work for you, but for me I don’t love my loved ones one minute, hate them the next, then go back to loving them later; it doesn't work for me that way. I may be angry at them one moment then happy the next, but when I am angry, I don’t hate them I still love them thus their value to me remains the same. How about you? Do you only love and value others because God instructs you to? Or are you capable of finding value in others on your own?

Ken
Nessa wrote: We are talking about feelings alone. No one can have feelings of love constantly for another all the time, in my opinion. We are human and humans always fall short. Not all the time though and some more than others.
Are you confusing the feeling of love for someone with the feeling of happiness with them, and the feeling of hatred towards someone with being angry at them?
Nessa wrote: I can find value in people on my own but it's subjective and like basing an opinion on shifting sands depending on how I feel that day. WHY do you think the divorce rate is so high? Sometimes because people fall out of love and don't necessarily care to find their way back
So is it fair to say the only reason you value and love some people is because God tells you to?
Nessa wrote: Ultimately love is a choice I make. Which is grounded on substance and not just whims
Feelings aren't based on whims; at least for me they are not.
Nessa wrote: Are you confusing the knowledge of love as being the same as a feeling?
I've never heard of love described as a knowledge. Please explain.

K
You know you love someone because you are choosing to love them e.g your actions show love. And you may feel love too.

Knowledge is understanding you are loving them through choice regardless of how you necessarily feel.

Feelings are feelings. I am not saying they aren't meaningful. But I am also not saying they are necessarily a good way to know the truth. Our feelings are always subjective in my opinion.
Interesting perspective. I don't think that applies to me though. If I could choose to love, that would also mean I could choose to hate. I could not choose to hate my mother after all that she has done for me. If a monster did to my family what Idi Amin did to his victims, I would hate him and would not be able to choose to love that person. But thats just me though. What about you? Do you choose to love Jesus? Could you also choose to hate him?

Ken

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Re: The meaning of immaterial life

#123

Post by Nicki » Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:22 am

Kenny wrote:
Nessa wrote: You know you love someone because you are choosing to love them e.g your actions show love. And you may feel love too.

Knowledge is understanding you are loving them through choice regardless of how you necessarily feel.

Feelings are feelings. I am not saying they aren't meaningful. But I am also not saying they are necessarily a good way to know the truth. Our feelings are always subjective in my opinion.
Interesting perspective. I don't think that applies to me though. If I could choose to love, that would also mean I could choose to hate. I could not choose to hate my mother after all that she has done for me. If a monster did to my family what Idi Amin did to his victims, I would hate him and would not be able to choose to love that person. But thats just me though. What about you? Do you choose to love Jesus? Could you also choose to hate him?

Ken
As Nessa said, Christian love is about being loving, not just feeling loving. We know God wants us to be caring to others regardless of how we feel about them, because he values everyone equally. So of course it's possible to choose to be hateful to someone - if we really wanted to for some reason we could probably find reason to feel hate for them as well. That's not the way God wants us to live though.
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Re: The meaning of immaterial life

#124

Post by Kurieuo » Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:55 am

Love is complex and can mean many things. What is love? Baby don't hurt me... :P

Something that took me years to understand in my own marriage is what I see as REAL love.

The love often placed on a pedestal is that of couples "in love", sexual desiring and the like, and that kind of love can generate connectness with another and powerful feelings. If/when a marriage hits a point where, "Gee, I'm not sure I love you anymore", often what is meant by love is they no longer have this connectedness, desirable feelings for the other person. Many marriages end up in divorce when this kind of love is lost.

Yet, if you struggle with that kind of love, then that is when the REAL love kicks in. The same self-sacrificial love God (via Christ) had for us. A love where you lay down your life for the other person. The type of love husbands are suppose to have for their wives and family (Ephesians 5:25). A love that remains faithful and gives even when undeserved. A love that is honourable and makes true to vows and commitments pledged "for better or for worse." This love is often very much something we choose, and most have a hard time with it at some point.

To a large degree having children can teach us about this unique love. No matter what they do, a mother and father will often still love their children. Ok, there are many poor mothers and fathers around, obviously not all really care about their kids and we may exclude such. But, to the other mothers and fathers, love of one's own children isn't based upon "feeling" or what their kids have done in life. You accept your own children and love them regardless.
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Re: The meaning of immaterial life

#125

Post by Nessa » Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:09 am

Kurieuo wrote:Love is complex and can mean many things. What is love? Baby don't hurt me... :P
Ok, I cant stop laughing :lol:

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Re: The meaning of immaterial life

#126

Post by RickD » Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:32 am

Nessa wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:Love is complex and can mean many things. What is love? Baby don't hurt me... :P
Ok, I cant stop laughing :lol:
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Re: The meaning of immaterial life

#127

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:35 am

OK, so we conclude that Kenny does NOT understand what objective is:

Objective:
adjective
4.
being the object or goal of one's efforts or actions.
5.
not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased:
an objective opinion.
6.
intent upon or dealing with things external to the mind rather than with thoughts or feelings, as a person or a book.
7.
being the object of perception or thought; belonging to the object of thought rather than to the thinking subject (opposed to subjective ).
8.
of or relating to something that can be known, or to something that is an object or a part of an object; existing independent of thought or an observer as part of reality.
In regards to this conversation and math, the correct use is number 8:
of or relating to something that can be known, or to something that is an object or a part of an object; existing independent of thought or an observer as part of reality.
Note that it is INDEPENDENT OF THOUGHT.

Math, to be objective, which is what Kenny said it is, is NOT dependent on thought, ie:
2+2=4 was NOT invented ( that would mean it is DEPENDENT on thought), but "discovered".
It also means that 2+2=4 would always be the case even if there was no one around to count it or nothing to be counted.

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Re: The meaning of immaterial life

#128

Post by RickD » Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:23 am

PaulSacramento wrote:OK, so we conclude that Kenny does NOT understand what objective is:

Objective:
adjective
4.
being the object or goal of one's efforts or actions.
5.
not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased:
an objective opinion.
6.
intent upon or dealing with things external to the mind rather than with thoughts or feelings, as a person or a book.
7.
being the object of perception or thought; belonging to the object of thought rather than to the thinking subject (opposed to subjective ).
8.
of or relating to something that can be known, or to something that is an object or a part of an object; existing independent of thought or an observer as part of reality.
In regards to this conversation and math, the correct use is number 8:
of or relating to something that can be known, or to something that is an object or a part of an object; existing independent of thought or an observer as part of reality.
Note that it is INDEPENDENT OF THOUGHT.

Math, to be objective, which is what Kenny said it is, is NOT dependent on thought, ie:
2+2=4 was NOT invented ( that would mean it is DEPENDENT on thought), but "discovered".
It also means that 2+2=4 would always be the case even if there was no one around to count it or nothing to be counted.
Maybe Kenny believes math is objective by the definition of #7?
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Kenny (Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:44 am)
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Re: The meaning of immaterial life

#129

Post by Kenny » Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:59 am

Nicki wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Nessa wrote: You know you love someone because you are choosing to love them e.g your actions show love. And you may feel love too.

Knowledge is understanding you are loving them through choice regardless of how you necessarily feel.

Feelings are feelings. I am not saying they aren't meaningful. But I am also not saying they are necessarily a good way to know the truth. Our feelings are always subjective in my opinion.
Interesting perspective. I don't think that applies to me though. If I could choose to love, that would also mean I could choose to hate. I could not choose to hate my mother after all that she has done for me. If a monster did to my family what Idi Amin did to his victims, I would hate him and would not be able to choose to love that person. But thats just me though. What about you? Do you choose to love Jesus? Could you also choose to hate him?

Ken
As Nessa said, Christian love is about being loving, not just feeling loving. We know God wants us to be caring to others regardless of how we feel about them, because he values everyone equally. So of course it's possible to choose to be hateful to someone - if we really wanted to for some reason we could probably find reason to feel hate for them as well. That's not the way God wants us to live though.
We’re not talking about being loving or hateful, we’re talking about hating and loving. See the difference?

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Re: The meaning of immaterial life

#130

Post by RickD » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:07 am

Kenny wrote:
Nicki wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Nessa wrote: You know you love someone because you are choosing to love them e.g your actions show love. And you may feel love too.

Knowledge is understanding you are loving them through choice regardless of how you necessarily feel.

Feelings are feelings. I am not saying they aren't meaningful. But I am also not saying they are necessarily a good way to know the truth. Our feelings are always subjective in my opinion.
Interesting perspective. I don't think that applies to me though. If I could choose to love, that would also mean I could choose to hate. I could not choose to hate my mother after all that she has done for me. If a monster did to my family what Idi Amin did to his victims, I would hate him and would not be able to choose to love that person. But thats just me though. What about you? Do you choose to love Jesus? Could you also choose to hate him?

Ken
As Nessa said, Christian love is about being loving, not just feeling loving. We know God wants us to be caring to others regardless of how we feel about them, because he values everyone equally. So of course it's possible to choose to be hateful to someone - if we really wanted to for some reason we could probably find reason to feel hate for them as well. That's not the way God wants us to live though.
We’re not talking about being loving or hateful, we’re talking about hating and loving. See the difference?
y:O2
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: The meaning of immaterial life

#131

Post by Kurieuo » Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:30 am

RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Nicki wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Nessa wrote: You know you love someone because you are choosing to love them e.g your actions show love. And you may feel love too.

Knowledge is understanding you are loving them through choice regardless of how you necessarily feel.

Feelings are feelings. I am not saying they aren't meaningful. But I am also not saying they are necessarily a good way to know the truth. Our feelings are always subjective in my opinion.
Interesting perspective. I don't think that applies to me though. If I could choose to love, that would also mean I could choose to hate. I could not choose to hate my mother after all that she has done for me. If a monster did to my family what Idi Amin did to his victims, I would hate him and would not be able to choose to love that person. But thats just me though. What about you? Do you choose to love Jesus? Could you also choose to hate him?

Ken
As Nessa said, Christian love is about being loving, not just feeling loving. We know God wants us to be caring to others regardless of how we feel about them, because he values everyone equally. So of course it's possible to choose to be hateful to someone - if we really wanted to for some reason we could probably find reason to feel hate for them as well. That's not the way God wants us to live though.
We’re not talking about being loving or hateful, we’re talking about hating and loving. See the difference?
y:O2
I swear Kenny is t'ing up to be the next Dalai Lama. :P
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Re: The meaning of immaterial life

#132

Post by Nicki » Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:09 am

Kenny wrote:
Nicki wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Nessa wrote: You know you love someone because you are choosing to love them e.g your actions show love. And you may feel love too.

Knowledge is understanding you are loving them through choice regardless of how you necessarily feel.

Feelings are feelings. I am not saying they aren't meaningful. But I am also not saying they are necessarily a good way to know the truth. Our feelings are always subjective in my opinion.
Interesting perspective. I don't think that applies to me though. If I could choose to love, that would also mean I could choose to hate. I could not choose to hate my mother after all that she has done for me. If a monster did to my family what Idi Amin did to his victims, I would hate him and would not be able to choose to love that person. But thats just me though. What about you? Do you choose to love Jesus? Could you also choose to hate him?

Ken
As Nessa said, Christian love is about being loving, not just feeling loving. We know God wants us to be caring to others regardless of how we feel about them, because he values everyone equally. So of course it's possible to choose to be hateful to someone - if we really wanted to for some reason we could probably find reason to feel hate for them as well. That's not the way God wants us to live though.
We’re not talking about being loving or hateful, we’re talking about hating and loving. See the difference?
My point was they're essentially the same - it's how we act that matters rather than how we feel. The idea is that rather than people having value because we feel love for them, we love people (actively) because they have value. The choice is not about a feeling but about what we do. As the Bible says, if you meet someone in need what good is it if you just wish them well rather than actually helping them? The helping is love.

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Re: The meaning of immaterial life

#133

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:05 am

The issue of intent ( how we feel/what our goal is) is a very important one.
Actions can mask bad intent.
They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions but the reality is that the road to hell is paved with good acts FROM bad ( self-centered) intentions.
We can't always control/be responsible for 100% of the outcome of what we do BUT we are 100% responsible for the intention behind what we do.

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Re: The meaning of immaterial life

#134

Post by Kenny » Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:31 am

Kenny wrote:
Nicki wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Nessa wrote: You know you love someone because you are choosing to love them e.g your actions show love. And you may feel love too.

Knowledge is understanding you are loving them through choice regardless of how you necessarily feel.

Feelings are feelings. I am not saying they aren't meaningful. But I am also not saying they are necessarily a good way to know the truth. Our feelings are always subjective in my opinion.
Interesting perspective. I don't think that applies to me though. If I could choose to love, that would also mean I could choose to hate. I could not choose to hate my mother after all that she has done for me. If a monster did to my family what Idi Amin did to his victims, I would hate him and would not be able to choose to love that person. But thats just me though. What about you? Do you choose to love Jesus? Could you also choose to hate him?

Ken
As Nessa said, Christian love is about being loving, not just feeling loving. We know God wants us to be caring to others regardless of how we feel about them, because he values everyone equally. So of course it's possible to choose to be hateful to someone - if we really wanted to for some reason we could probably find reason to feel hate for them as well. That's not the way God wants us to live though.
We’re not talking about being loving or hateful, we’re talking about hating and loving. See the difference?
Nicki wrote: My point was they're essentially the same - it's how we act that matters rather than how we feel.
Even when they act due to fear of consequence? Those around Idi Amin acted loving towards him out of fear of becoming his next victim if they did not. Of course they would have acted against him if opportunity presented itself; but it isn’t always about the monsters, some may act loving towards you in order to get something from you. People choose to act loving and hateful all the time, but when it comes to love, or hate, that’s different; I don’t know if that is so much of a choice.
Nicki wrote: The idea is that rather than people having value because we feel love for them, we love people (actively) because they have value.
If this value isn’t based on love, what is it based on?
Nicki wrote: The choice is not about a feeling but about what we do. As the Bible says, if you meet someone in need what good is it if you just wish them well rather than actually helping them? The helping is love.

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Re: The meaning of immaterial life

#135

Post by Nessa » Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:29 pm

Kurieuo wrote: I swear Kenny is t'ing up to be the next Dalai Lama. :P
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