The Strongest Argument for God

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
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Re: The Strongest Argument for God

#16

Post by Philip » Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:17 pm

Melanie: It’s very dangerous to be dogmatic that your truth is the only truth.
It depends upon where one got their truth. If it's a clearly understandable truth given to us by GOD - then being dogmatic by affirming THAT kind of truth - that's a good thing!

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Re: The Strongest Argument for God

#17

Post by Kenny » Sat May 12, 2018 9:51 am

The strongest argument for God? I would point to the fact that most people believe in some type of God/higher power. Sorta like popularity as an indicator of truth.

Ken
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Kurieuo (Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:56 pm)
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: The Strongest Argument for God

#18

Post by RickD » Sat May 12, 2018 11:58 am

Kenny wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 9:51 am
The strongest argument for God? I would point to the fact that most people believe in some type of God/higher power. Sorta like popularity as an indicator of truth.

Ken
In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "argument to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition must be true because many or most people believe it, often concisely encapsulated as: "If many believe so, it is so."
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

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Re: The Strongest Argument for God

#19

Post by Kurieuo » Sun May 13, 2018 7:12 pm

RickD wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 11:58 am
Kenny wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 9:51 am
The strongest argument for God? I would point to the fact that most people believe in some type of God/higher power. Sorta like popularity as an indicator of truth.

Ken
In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "argument to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition must be true because many or most people believe it, often concisely encapsulated as: "If many believe so, it is so."
Actually, it isn't necessarily an informal fallacy. Come on Rick, don't be so obtuse, praise when its due. :P

Provided Kenny can provide further explanation for why the conclusion ("God or a higher power exists") is to be expected from the premise "most people believing in such", then it isn't necessarily fallacious. BUT, there must be a correlation or connection between the two, other than simply most people believe.

Consider what we might expect belief-wise in people given God does exist and created us. Mightn't we expect most people to believe in God (or some higher power) if indeed God created us? If you answer yes, then it isn't necessarily an ad populum fallacy to draw a conclusion God exists based upon most people believing such.

Why does God creating us mean we might carry some deep seated beliefs about God and spiritual matters? Whether or not we fully acknowledge God's existence, I think it reasonable to expect our creator would have implanted certain truths within our psyche.

For example, Paul talks of the moral law in Romans 2 not simply as that which was given by the letter, but also that which has been written on our hearts. Thus, if God exists, it stands to reason also we'd expect many people to be moral and truly see as good that which is morally good, and bad that which is wrong (in accordance to how our author see such).

Scripture likewise talks of God setting eternity in our hearts (Ecc 3:11), so for example, unlike animals we have thoughts of immortality, spirtuality, beleive in an afterlife, and like -- thus it isn't fallacious to conclude that many in humanity possess these beliefs does point to God existing. Autonomy and free will I'd argue is another area many would believe in, though the correlation might be less obvious to some.

So then, I agree with Kenny, and must say am a little surprised. He is onto very strong arguments for God's existence as I see matters. Furthermore, I think it is an evident deep-seated wilful denial of God that leads someone to reject such truths (God belief, spirituality, eternality, morality, free will, etc), and as such, ultimately bury knowledge of God.

Some may not even know they're willfully denying God, yet on the subconsciousness level their hearts bear witness against them, and indeed this represents a more problematic deep-seated willful denial of God. More problematic because a person may not even be aware to it, think they're being logically sound in their conclusions and judgements of arguments, not realising their own hearts are decieving them.

Finally, no Christian should think themselves great in this respect, that they didn't deny God. Yes, we accept God now, but he can be denied in many ways even still. Further, it isn't necessarily credit to us that we realised the truth and came to Christ, but there is something about God's drawing, the working of the Holy Spirit and affectivities upon us, to which our hardness melted and responded positively. The vines around our hearts were broken, we merely allowed them to be cut perhaps, and who is to say others who currently deny aren't also progressively being tended to by God and set free?

So then, our acceptace of God isn't something we can boast about if Scripture is correct, as according to Scripture every single one of us denies God and don't seek after him in our [un]natural sinful state (Romans 3:11).
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: The Strongest Argument for God

#20

Post by Kurieuo » Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:58 pm

Kenny wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 9:51 am
The strongest argument for God? I would point to the fact that most people believe in some type of God/higher power. Sorta like popularity as an indicator of truth.

Ken
I have a feeling as well, that the reason why most people do believe in some type of God/higher power, is either based upon the fact OR due to the same reasons people intuitively believe life is valuable.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: The Strongest Argument for God

#21

Post by Kenny » Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:56 am

Kurieuo wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:58 pm
Kenny wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 9:51 am
The strongest argument for God? I would point to the fact that most people believe in some type of God/higher power. Sorta like popularity as an indicator of truth.

Ken
I have a feeling as well, that the reason why most people do believe in some type of God/higher power, is either based upon the fact OR due to the same reasons people intuitively believe life is valuable.
And what reason would that be?
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: The Strongest Argument for God

#22

Post by Kurieuo » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:59 pm

Kenny wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:56 am
Kurieuo wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:58 pm
Kenny wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 9:51 am
The strongest argument for God? I would point to the fact that most people believe in some type of God/higher power. Sorta like popularity as an indicator of truth.

Ken
I have a feeling as well, that the reason why most people do believe in some type of God/higher power, is either based upon the fact OR due to the same reasons people intuitively believe life is valuable.
And what reason would that be?
To quote what we seem to agree on elsewhere, something like: "Such merely comes after the fact of the more obvious and intuitive belief that [humans are indeed special and valuable God/a higher power exists]. We merely expect others to realise this as a matter of fact rather than reason."

That is, "WE ALL start with certain beliefs that are self-evident to us." Believing in God or some higher power is something very human to do.

If you were to take a stab at why, in your own words, "most people believe in some type of God/higher power" -- what would you guess as the reason for this?
Last edited by Kurieuo on Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Strongest Argument for God

#23

Post by Morny » Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:01 pm

Kurieuo wrote: To the Atheist/Agnostic contingent, you saw the title of this thread and clicked. I was just interested to know whether you *sighed*, rolled your eyes, thought "yeah right" or something such? i.e., you were already dismissive before opening this thread?
None of the above. My reaction was to conscientiously think of an answer before clicking on the thread. I do the same with math/logic/puzzle problems.

My best argument for God is that the weight of evidence doesn't come close to ruling out the possibility. And that argument is far from dismissive.

Contrast that situation with the evidence against many other things that people believe. For example, MMR causes autism, the Earth is flat, humans do not share a common ancestor with chimps.

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Re: The Strongest Argument for God

#24

Post by Kurieuo » Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:04 pm

To be honest, the purpose of my opening post/question didn't even work out as I intended, but seems to have worked out in other ways. I've never, I don't think, simply asked someone who doesn't believe in God what they believe the strongest argument for God is. I was taken back by Kenny's own response when I saw it, and then just saw it again yesterday (as I'd forgotton about it). I'd think I would have asked, maybe I have, but just never got a straight answer. I'm not sure.
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Re: The Strongest Argument for God

#25

Post by Kurieuo » Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:09 pm

Morny wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:01 pm
My best argument for God is that the weight of evidence doesn't come close to ruling out the possibility. And that argument is far from dismissive.
Given this, if someone has spiritual/divine experiences of sorts, which they can only understand in the context of their religious beliefs, are they justified in their beliefs. Not whether such beliefs are true, but rather whether they'd be justified to believe.
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Re: The Strongest Argument for God

#26

Post by Kenny » Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:11 pm

Kurieuo wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:59 pm
Kenny wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:56 am
Kurieuo wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:58 pm
Kenny wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 9:51 am
The strongest argument for God? I would point to the fact that most people believe in some type of God/higher power. Sorta like popularity as an indicator of truth.

Ken
I have a feeling as well, that the reason why most people do believe in some type of God/higher power, is either based upon the fact OR due to the same reasons people intuitively believe life is valuable.
And what reason would that be?
To quote [url=viewtopic.php?p=244153#p244153]
If you were to take a stab at why, in your own words, "most people believe in some type of God/higher power" -- what would you guess as the reason for this?
People like answers. I believe many people would even prefer an unreasonable answer over no answer at all. If there is one thing theism provides; it's answers.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: The Strongest Argument for God

#27

Post by Kurieuo » Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:43 pm

Kenny wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:11 pm
Kurieuo wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:59 pm
Kenny wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:56 am
Kurieuo wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:58 pm
Kenny wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 9:51 am
The strongest argument for God? I would point to the fact that most people believe in some type of God/higher power. Sorta like popularity as an indicator of truth.

Ken
I have a feeling as well, that the reason why most people do believe in some type of God/higher power, is either based upon the fact OR due to the same reasons people intuitively believe life is valuable.
And what reason would that be?
To quote [url=viewtopic.php?p=244153#p244153]
If you were to take a stab at why, in your own words, "most people believe in some type of God/higher power" -- what would you guess as the reason for this?
People like answers. I believe many people would even prefer an unreasonable answer over no answer at all. If there is one thing theism provides; it's answers.
I don't see it as unreasonable to consider why most people do believe in some type of God/higher power. Surely, you could minimally put forward some reasonable possibilities as to why this might be the case?

As for myself, I don't see it unreasonable to believe in the same manner humans appear to be inherently moral creatures that we're also inherently theistic, spiritual, religious or what-have-you.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: The Strongest Argument for God

#28

Post by Philip » Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:58 pm

I find it a powerful evidence that, of the millions of other species, we are the only creature on earth that is so much further advanced in intelligence, reasoning, and having deep psychological and spiritual traits, and abilities are that are far superior to any other specie on the planet.

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Re: The Strongest Argument for God

#29

Post by Kenny » Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:38 pm

Kurieuo wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:43 pm
Kenny wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:11 pm
Kurieuo wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:59 pm
Kenny wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:56 am
Kurieuo wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:58 pm

I have a feeling as well, that the reason why most people do believe in some type of God/higher power, is either based upon the fact OR due to the same reasons people intuitively believe life is valuable.
And what reason would that be?
To quote [url=viewtopic.php?p=244153#p244153]
If you were to take a stab at why, in your own words, "most people believe in some type of God/higher power" -- what would you guess as the reason for this?
People like answers. I believe many people would even prefer an unreasonable answer over no answer at all. If there is one thing theism provides; it's answers.
I don't see it as unreasonable to consider why most people do believe in some type of God/higher power. Surely, you could minimally put forward some reasonable possibilities as to why this might be the case?
I think most people believe because everybody around them believes. That’s why I used to believe; I just sorta took everybody else's word for it
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: The Strongest Argument for God

#30

Post by Morny » Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:10 am

Kurieuo wrote: Given this, if someone has spiritual/divine experiences of sorts, which they can only understand in the context of their religious beliefs, are they justified in their beliefs.
I suppose everything depends on the specifics of what "experiences of sorts" and "their religious belief" are. I can understand if you don't want to give specifics. But as an example, if a Morman claimed to see visions of Moroni, I suspect that both of us would question the reality of that Morman's justification for his vision.

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