Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
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Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God

#16

Post by RickD » Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:42 am

Byblos wrote:
I don't know about anyone else but I simply don't have enough faith to be an atheist.
Ain't dat da trufe!!! :amen:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God

#17

Post by Philip » Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:00 am

Byblos wrote:
I don't know about anyone else but I simply don't have enough faith to be an atheist.
Which just happens to be the title of an excellent book by Norman Geisler!

https://www.amazon.com/Dont-Have-Enough ... an+atheist

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Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God

#18

Post by Kenny » Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:19 am

B. W. wrote:
RickD wrote:I think Kenny is talking about Christians who look down their noses at unbelievers, and think they're better than them.

While I think that "better than thou" attitude certainly steers people away from God, it's not really an argument against God. It's more of an argument for a sin nature.
That I agree with. However, the is mistake is to paint all Christians with the same brush stroke.

So as I stated on anther thread to you , Ken

Now, I cannot help people's maturity levels in Christ because one starts as a new born and grows from there learning by faith to hearken to the Lord one step and growth spurt at a time. So do not judge all Christians by infantile behavior of someone’s growing pain.

God offers a simple choice to either accept him or reject him completely. That's all Christianity offers. True bible based Christianity cannot force anything on any one. It offers a free choice to a person where they can decide freely to continue living in complete dysfunction or find the liberty from that dysfunction which freedom only Christ Jesus brings. Why, we learn to hear and listen to the ways he speaks to humanity to frees us from such dysfunctions!

Finding that freedom means we can actually say no to producing so much dysfunction. We learn to reason with the Lord and are purified and made whole.


The majority of Christians are not sanctimonious twits so your point is not a bases to reject Christ...
-
I think you are missing the point BW when I listed my least convincing argument for God, I was not listing the arguments that came from you or anyone specific, I was simply listing the least convincing argument I’ve heard. And as far as this idea that I reject your idea of God because of the argument I find least convincing; I can assure you that is not my reason.

Ken
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Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God

#19

Post by Kenny » Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:22 am

Byblos wrote: I don't know about anyone else but I simply don't have enough faith to be an atheist.
I don't know how you define faith, but it is obviously different than I define it.

Ken
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Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God

#20

Post by Kenny » Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:31 am

Kenny wrote:
Philip wrote:
Ken: Whether you like it or not, admit to it or not, there have been many Christians to hold that position
Well, it depends upon exactly what aspect of moral superiority we're speaking of.

If we are comparing ANYONE'S morality to God, then we are all but miserable, sinful creatures. If we are speaking of are likelihood of doing sinful things, we ALL have this problem. But if we are speaking of Christians following a morally spiritual path in having faith in and following God vs. those who only are following their own little god (the one they see in the mirror every morning), then Christians are polar opposites as to what they morally believe and aspire to - which obviously doesn't make them immune from sinful impulses. But ALL Christians have the Holy Spirit guiding and instructing them, and while they can still resist Him, unbelievers have only themselves to obey. Every unbeliever ONLY has whatever self rules they desire, with all else being mere opinions they may or may not agree with.
you've made my point

K
PaulSacramento wrote: Actually ken, he didn't.
I don't think you understood his post.

Believers to not THINK they are morally superior to non-believers because we KNOW that we are not.
Don’t assume that because you don’t nobody does.
PaulSacramento wrote: Believer ASPIRE to be better because we KNOW we should be and we have the HS guiding us to the end.
It doesn't make us better or worse, it makes us knowledgeable of the FACT that we must try to be better.

Now, one can argue that the non-believer knows this also and doesn't "need" the HS to guide them BUT what is misunderstood in that regard is the INTENTION of WHY one must be good.

In short:
For the believer, being good is not the END goal, but the start and is OTHER centered as opposed to self-centered - being good not because we have to or because we want something for it but because it is done out of Love for Christ-.

For the non-believer, being good is required because either their personal moral code requires it or because societies rules demand it or because the Law requires it
Or perhaps the non-believer has integrity; thus the desire to do the right thing even when nobody is looking
PaulSacramento wrote: so the INTENTIOn to be moral is a bit different.
Doesn't matter. Whatever your motivation, one should always attempt to do the right thing.

Ken
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Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God

#21

Post by Kenny » Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:35 am

Nicki wrote:
Kenny wrote:
B. W. wrote:
Ken: The least powerful argument I can think of in support of God is the claim that those who believe are morally superior to those who do not.
This is a common presuppositional myth atheist have in order to support their own moral superiority..

y:-? .
Whether you like it or not, admit to it or not, there have been many Christians to hold that position

Ken
We (generally speaking) don't think we are morally superior, but that God's way is morally superior to any other way. If we thought some other way was better (and based on truth), well, we'd probably be going with that. We (generally) want to live in that right way but all vary in how much we manage that. There are probably some Christians though who look down on others and forget that no one's perfect.
Isn't to say "Gods morals are superior to yours, and I follow God's morals" a less offensive way of saying that your morals are superior to the non-believers?

Ken
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Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God

#22

Post by Nicki » Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:04 am

Kenny wrote:
Nicki wrote:
Kenny wrote:
B. W. wrote:
Ken: The least powerful argument I can think of in support of God is the claim that those who believe are morally superior to those who do not.
This is a common presuppositional myth atheist have in order to support their own moral superiority..

y:-? .
Whether you like it or not, admit to it or not, there have been many Christians to hold that position

Ken
We (generally speaking) don't think we are morally superior, but that God's way is morally superior to any other way. If we thought some other way was better (and based on truth), well, we'd probably be going with that. We (generally) want to live in that right way but all vary in how much we manage that. There are probably some Christians though who look down on others and forget that no one's perfect.
Isn't to say "Gods morals are superior to yours, and I follow God's morals" a less offensive way of saying that your morals are superior to the non-believers?

Ken
Maybe, but doesn't everyone think that what they think is right is, in fact, right? Non-Christians often hold the view that morality is fluid and a matter of opinion, but they might look down on Christians as being hypocritical, intolerant and, as you say, holier-than-thou - thereby feeling superior to Christians.

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Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God

#23

Post by Philip » Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:43 am

Ken: Isn't to say "Gods morals are superior to yours, and I follow God's morals" a less offensive way of saying that your morals are superior to the non-believers?
Being a believer who is committed to GOD'S sense of morality, does not mean that you yet OWN His morality, but merely aspire to it, as we seek God's help in making that aspiration, hopefully, more and more of a reality in the way we think and live our lives. However, our propensity to sin remains, because we are still mortal and in our flesh.

Again, ANY Christian thinking they are currently morally superior to non-Christians aren't using GOD'S measuring stick - which is that all men are sinful. But we CAN uses the measuring stick of Scripture to judge whether our individual, specific actions and thinking are morally superior to those of non-Christians - and in fact, are instructed to do so.

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Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God

#24

Post by melanie » Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:58 am

.
Last edited by melanie on Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God

#25

Post by melanie » Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:01 am

Philip wrote:
Ken: Isn't to say "Gods morals are superior to yours, and I follow God's morals" a less offensive way of saying that your morals are superior to the non-believers?
Being a believer who is committed to GOD'S sense of morality, does not mean that you yet OWN His morality, but merely aspire to it, as we seek God's help in making that aspiration, hopefully, more and more of a reality in the way we think and live our lives. However, our propensity to sin remains, because we are still mortal and in our flesh.

Again, ANY Christian thinking they are currently morally superior to non-Christians aren't using GOD'S measuring stick - which is that all men are sinful. But we CAN uses the measuring stick of Scripture to judge whether our individual, specific actions and thinking are morally superior to those of non-Christians - and in fact, are instructed to do so.
What does morally superior look like??
Because I think it's a farce

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Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God

#26

Post by Philip » Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:20 pm

What does morally superior look like??
Morally superior behavior is behavior we can see as Scripturally taught as being right, as opposed being wrong/sinful - telling the truth vs. lying, etc. God sets the standards. But no PERSON, per God's measuring stick, is morally superior.

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Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God

#27

Post by Kurieuo » Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:50 pm

melanie wrote:
Philip wrote:
Ken: Isn't to say "Gods morals are superior to yours, and I follow God's morals" a less offensive way of saying that your morals are superior to the non-believers?
Being a believer who is committed to GOD'S sense of morality, does not mean that you yet OWN His morality, but merely aspire to it, as we seek God's help in making that aspiration, hopefully, more and more of a reality in the way we think and live our lives. However, our propensity to sin remains, because we are still mortal and in our flesh.

Again, ANY Christian thinking they are currently morally superior to non-Christians aren't using GOD'S measuring stick - which is that all men are sinful. But we CAN uses the measuring stick of Scripture to judge whether our individual, specific actions and thinking are morally superior to those of non-Christians - and in fact, are instructed to do so.
What does morally superior look like??
Because I think it's a farce
God? ;)
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God

#28

Post by Kenny » Fri Sep 16, 2016 3:58 pm

Nicki wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Nicki wrote:
Kenny wrote:
B. W. wrote:
This is a common presuppositional myth atheist have in order to support their own moral superiority..

y:-? .
Whether you like it or not, admit to it or not, there have been many Christians to hold that position

Ken
We (generally speaking) don't think we are morally superior, but that God's way is morally superior to any other way. If we thought some other way was better (and based on truth), well, we'd probably be going with that. We (generally) want to live in that right way but all vary in how much we manage that. There are probably some Christians though who look down on others and forget that no one's perfect.
Isn't to say "Gods morals are superior to yours, and I follow God's morals" a less offensive way of saying that your morals are superior to the non-believers?

Ken
Maybe, but doesn't everyone think that what they think is right is, in fact, right?
I agree with you. As I said before, I believe my opinions are superior to all others that differ from mine. If I find an opinion that is better than mine, I will discard my opinion and adopt this new opinion as my own as well. Only a stubborn person who has no interest in the truth will admit someone else's opinion is better, yet they refuse to admit their error and they still hold on to their flawed opinion.

Ken

Ken
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Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God

#29

Post by Kurieuo » Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:17 pm

Kenny wrote:
Nicki wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Nicki wrote:
Kenny wrote: Whether you like it or not, admit to it or not, there have been many Christians to hold that position

Ken
We (generally speaking) don't think we are morally superior, but that God's way is morally superior to any other way. If we thought some other way was better (and based on truth), well, we'd probably be going with that. We (generally) want to live in that right way but all vary in how much we manage that. There are probably some Christians though who look down on others and forget that no one's perfect.
Isn't to say "Gods morals are superior to yours, and I follow God's morals" a less offensive way of saying that your morals are superior to the non-believers?

Ken
Maybe, but doesn't everyone think that what they think is right is, in fact, right?
I agree with you. As I said before, I believe my opinions are superior to all others that differ from mine. If I find an opinion that is better than mine, I will discard my opinion and adopt this new opinion as my own as well. Only a stubborn person who has no interest in the truth will admit someone else's opinion is better, yet they refuse to admit their error and they still hold on to their flawed opinion.

Ken
Ken, you need to take up a course in logic.

A) "I believe my opinions are superior to all others that differ from mine."

Is incompatible with:

B) "If I find an opinion that is better than mine, I will discard my opinion and adopt this new opinion as my own as well".

If you believe your opinions are superior to others that differ, then you'll never find an opinion that is better than your own. Furthermore, if you need to discard your own opinion to adopt a new one (i.e., it is conflicting), then you can't logically adopt it as well (i.e., have your opinion with the new conflicting one) unless you are fine with being a contradiction.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God

#30

Post by Kenny » Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:00 pm

Kurieuo wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Nicki wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Nicki wrote:
We (generally speaking) don't think we are morally superior, but that God's way is morally superior to any other way. If we thought some other way was better (and based on truth), well, we'd probably be going with that. We (generally) want to live in that right way but all vary in how much we manage that. There are probably some Christians though who look down on others and forget that no one's perfect.
Isn't to say "Gods morals are superior to yours, and I follow God's morals" a less offensive way of saying that your morals are superior to the non-believers?

Ken
Maybe, but doesn't everyone think that what they think is right is, in fact, right?
I agree with you. As I said before, I believe my opinions are superior to all others that differ from mine. If I find an opinion that is better than mine, I will discard my opinion and adopt this new opinion as my own as well. Only a stubborn person who has no interest in the truth will admit someone else's opinion is better, yet they refuse to admit their error and they still hold on to their flawed opinion.

Ken
Ken, you need to take up a course in logic.

A) "I believe my opinions are superior to all others that differ from mine."

Is incompatible with:

B) "If I find an opinion that is better than mine, I will discard my opinion and adopt this new opinion as my own as well".

If you believe your opinions are superior to others that differ, then you'll never find an opinion that is better than your own. Furthermore, if you need to discard your own opinion to adopt a new one (i.e., it is conflicting), then you can't logically adopt it as well (i.e., have your opinion with the new conflicting one) unless you are fine with being a contradiction.
Okay; think of it this way;

I currently believe my opinions are superior to all others that are different than mine. Now I will acknowledge the possibility that I could be wrong, that there could be superior opinion out there that I am unfamiliar with, but until I am made aware of such an opinion, I will continue to believe mine is the best.

Now if or when I am presented with a superior opinion, (which I’ve admitted is possible) I will discard my inferior opinion and adopt this new one that I found superior, as my own. Thus I will continue to believe my opinions (which includes the newly adopted ones) are superior to all others that are different than my own.

Does this make sense to you?

Ken
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