Kenny wrote:That seems to contradict what you said earlier when you said:
We would not know what is truly moral without a just God allowing liberty and sending forth something that declares what makes right and what makes wrong because people are lost trying to figure out the standards of right verse wrong in order to justify what they do.
Now not only do you seem to be saying mankind is capable of judging right from wrong, but that we do it everyday!
No contradiction at all, merely stating the obvious, we manipulate right and wrong to suite our own ends and thus in need of intervention from our common creator to set the tone of good, evil, right, wrong. Your words below proved my point:
Kenny wrote:Where we disagree, you believe your God’s morality is superior to all others, I believe my morality is superior to all others. Guess we can agree to disagree on that one
Hubris, Kenny, your morality is based upon pure hubris and thus your answers substantiates my point very well so, Thank You!
B. W. wrote: In Exodus 20:1-2, you need God to define what right is and what wrong is. Why, because we cannot make up our minds on what is right or wrong.
Because God doesn’t speak through the clouds, you guys can’t agree on what God says is right or wrong either, everybody interprets the Bible differently. You guys ain’t got it any better than I
Kenny, your every evolving morality cannot agree with each of your own tenets either and add to this: no two people can or could ever agree that your morality is superior either. What about others who do not agree with you?
Look, Ken, cannot you see that your moral superiority has holes in it and as part of the human race, that you err, and make mistakes.
Thus -- you have no bases for judging Christians like you just did in your statement just as all subjectivist are guilty of the same thing you accuse Christians of, you all do the same.
However, we Christians have God's words within his book and with such a book it contains God's words that cuts to the heart exposing what is in the heart - human hubris - so folks can turn away from it and find truth and be freed. You cannot at this time until you voluntarily receive the gift of Christ into your heart.
Lastly, you falsely assume Christians think themselves morally superior. We do not as the word of God exposes such pride in the heart as the problem folks have brings ruin, death, theft, hate into the world. We also know that - to each his own - is just. We know God reasons with people and does not force submission. We know he will judge and all we can do is present the gospel to you and all folks to begin the reasoning process. The rest is up to you and for that we are condemned by you and others for forcing our views upon and forced to shut up and be like the rest of the world
That is you point is this: we Christians are just like the world - so shut up!
You do not really know us because you base judgment on a small sample of inmature Christians and those posing as Christian who are not. You need to be honest and become born again and find out that we are not like the world but rather learning to how too objectively become more of the following - love (agape), joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, exercise self-control without hubirs ruining these.
True Bible based Christianity moves folks to discover what these words means and be changed by they by God's hands working within us: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.
Are you against these?
You try to ascribe to these principles too, yet, your morality fails you every time as you words to us expose the intent of your heart and the disdain you justify. Bold statement too is this: other religions cannot achieve these either. They may come close by hard works, but these allude...the strongest of efforts.
B.W. wrote:We (as human beings) change and lower the bar to suit our whims. You have stolen things haven't you? Ever coveted a member of the opposite sex in your lustful heart or acted upon it? How did you justify that as not being wrong? Does your concept of right and wrong control you to change the knowledge of good into evil and evil into good?
Kenny wrote:Tell you what; I will put my morals and my ethics up against anybody’s; yours included!...
Then you will fail as there is none righteous no not one, not even you. For us who know Christ, as well as for myself who was actually raised from the dead by God's grace alone 1980, simply know what it means to forgiven. Such forgiveness changes a person's direction in life. None are right in God's eyes as we twist things to justify our moral failings.
However, those who are born again, and know Him, we are changed out of such darkness because it is God who changes us inside out as we discover we cannot change ourselves no matter how hard we work at it. We discover God and himself working with us, changing us, correcting us, guiding us, helping us and all free too as he works within us and we go along for the ride. This ride I world not give up on know matter if you killed me or tortured me Kenny.
As Christians, we do become equipped to know and understand the objectivity of the following: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, and live accordingly while learning these words objective true meanings, all freely and find liberty - true liberty.
Ken you have no love in your heart toward us as your own words written on this thread prove. You are making yourself -god. People just like you put Jesus, the true God, on trial, mocked him, demanded he act accord to your whims, you bore false witnesses against him as did us all to prove we are god exercising god like moral superiority. How we treat others proves this as well.
All things done to Jesus, the betrayal, abandonment, rejection, the beatings, trials, mocking, lies told, selling out, placing too heavy burden on one they cannot bear. The putting people on trial in one’s mind and justifying the moral reasons for doing these sorts of things prove you are not morally superior nor godlike either.
Your statement below is telling:
Kenny wrote:...The moral code accepted by the men who wrote the scriptures is NOT the moral code that we hold now. And I believe we are better for it. When I look at some of the moral issues presented in the Bible (especially the Old Testament) and I compare them to my own, I choose my own. Ken
This shows you are incapable of understanding truth or exploring truth and thus incapable of reasoning thru things honestly at this current time. You do not consider the ancient times and how brutal cultures were at that time and era. You know nothing of Moloch and burning babies alive, nor of the bestiality practiced in fertility cults which spread disease and corrupted the gene pool. You know nothing of history but your own idea based upon looking at the OT through your own presuppositions.
You know nothing why Jesus came and did away with the OT laws or why. You currently show no intellectually honesty in investigating things other than to support your premises.
I and others here posting to you used to do the same things but we discovered we need forgiveness and release from hubris we owned as our own and recognized it was killing us.
As stated before:
...You need the divine law giver to define what is evil and what is good because we humans mess that up. God is just and certainly ‘gave’ us the law to reveal that we cannot keep it because we keep changing it to serve and justify thefts, coveting, forsaking others, rejecting them, etc. Isn't that what you do Ken?
We all need forgiveness and change of heart. In the and for that reason Jesus came and proved how people desire to treat God and offered forgiveness and restoration as he mentioned in John 3:16.
If the world simply lived by the love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control that God gives and teaches. Why would that be a bad evil world?
You, Ken, will answer that you can achieve those same ends. However, your hubris shows and will prove you wrong every time. You have no love toward me of Christ Jesus, you show no kindness or respect either, only disdain as evidenced by your many words on this very forum show that you have no moral superiority to speak of.
Question: Are not these words love (agape), joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control objectively defined?