Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
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Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

#61

Post by Philip » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:30 pm

Ken: When you say the Universe had a beginning, are you saying nothing existed then the Universe appeared? Or are you saying something else existed that changed to what we now call the Universe; or something else?
Of course "Something" - massively intelligent and powerful had to exist to design the components and functionalities of the building blocks of the universe and then orchestrate it's trajectories and movements. But did matter and physical things exist before the universe began? No! Because what they are made of didn't yet exist.

A definition of "matter" more fine-scale than the atoms and molecules definition is: matter is made up of what atoms and molecules are made of, meaning anything made of positively charged protons, neutral neutrons, and negatively charged electrons. And thus everything in the universe (except energy) is made of matter, and, so, everything in the universe is made of atoms. An atom itself is made up of three tiny kinds of particles called subatomic particles: protons, neutrons, and electrons. These building blocks of all physical things did not exist before the universe began - meaning no particles or matter - nor anything yet physically existed.

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Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

#62

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:51 am

Kenny wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:19 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:39 pm
You seem to make a lot of presuppositions about the Universe that I do not, (like when you claim the Universe actually came into existence)
Are you suggesting that the universe, as it is right now, was ALWAYS this way ??
No; I'm not saying that, I'm saying I don't think there was a point in time when nothing existed, then the Universe just popped into existence from nothing. I suspect something existed prior that changed into what we have now.
Best info we have ( hypothesis) is that there was a quantum singularity ( and event of intense gravitational force, holding the "potential universe" together) and that SOMETHING caused the singularity to expand ( "blow up").
This expansion is a proven fact.
We don't know what caused it but we know WHEN and that the expansion is STILL happening.
So, the universe, as we know it and as it is NOW, came into being ( was caused ) via this "whatever" that caused the singularity to expand.

The facts as we know them is this:
The universe started about 14 billion years ago.
Before that we do NOT know what was, BUT we speculate a intense gravitational force was holding "the universe together".
That thing is called a quantum singularity and, somehow, it started to expand.
Based on what we know of the universe, things like this need an "outside source" to cause "change".
We can conclude that SOMETHING caused the singularity to expand.

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Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

#63

Post by Philip » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:09 am

Paul: We can conclude that SOMETHING caused the singularity to expand.
But it's the characteristics of WHAT expanded that require a Designer, that most matters - and JUST the right things, mind you, to create a universe and that made possible all that exists to this day. And it is precisely the designs, characteristics, functionality, and interactivities of those first things that reveal them to be impossible without a Creator/Designer to MAKE and CONTROL them, with astounding precision.

BTW, the Big Bang was NOT an explosion - as many think per its name. It was an expansion of brilliance with unfathomable power and precision. So Kenny's assumption that something pre-existed is correct. But that "something" had to be extremely intelligent - and beyond all human knowledge and capabilities. That is Ken's HUGE problem - his denying an Intelligence was involved and would be required. Otherwise, he's back to belief that blind things can do things they have zero ability to, as well as zero potential to do. And intelligence cannot evolve. Any knowledge can only be applied by an ALREADY intelligent, thinking being to capitalize on whatever knowledge it has or gains.
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Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

#64

Post by Kenny » Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:25 pm

Philip wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:30 pm
Ken: When you say the Universe had a beginning, are you saying nothing existed then the Universe appeared? Or are you saying something else existed that changed to what we now call the Universe; or something else?
Of course "Something" - massively intelligent and powerful had to exist to design the components and functionalities of the building blocks of the universe and then orchestrate it's trajectories and movements. But did matter and physical things exist before the universe began? No! Because what they are made of didn't yet exist.

A definition of "matter" more fine-scale than the atoms and molecules definition is: matter is made up of what atoms and molecules are made of, meaning anything made of positively charged protons, neutral neutrons, and negatively charged electrons. And thus everything in the universe (except energy) is made of matter, and, so, everything in the universe is made of atoms. An atom itself is made up of three tiny kinds of particles called subatomic particles: protons, neutrons, and electrons. These building blocks of all physical things did not exist before the universe began - meaning no particles or matter - nor anything yet physically existed.
This is your opinion; not anything backed up by science; right? Because science doesn't claim a time when nothing existed, and they definitely don't claim something massively intelligent and powerful had to exist to design the components etc. etc; right?
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Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

#65

Post by Kenny » Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:30 pm

Philip wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:09 am
Paul: We can conclude that SOMETHING caused the singularity to expand.
But it's the characteristics of WHAT expanded that require a Designer, that most matters - and JUST the right things, mind you, to create a universe and that made possible all that exists to this day. And it is precisely the designs, characteristics, functionality, and interactivities of those first things that reveal them to be impossible without a Creator/Designer to MAKE and CONTROL them, with astounding precision.

BTW, the Big Bang was NOT an explosion - as many think per its name. It was an expansion of brilliance with unfathomable power and precision. So Kenny's assumption that something pre-existed is correct. But that "something" had to be extremely intelligent - and beyond all human knowledge and capabilities. That is Ken's HUGE problem - his denying an Intelligence was involved and would be required. Otherwise, he's back to belief that blind things can do things they have zero ability to, as well as zero potential to do. And intelligence cannot evolve. Any knowledge can only be applied by an ALREADY intelligent, thinking being to capitalize on whatever knowledge it has or gains.
If that's my problem, it's also a science problem as well because modern science doesn't claim an intelligence was involved and is required either.
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Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

#66

Post by Philip » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:49 am

Ken: Because science doesn't claim a time when nothing existed, and they definitely don't claim something massively intelligent and powerful had to exist to design the components etc. etc; right?
Ken, you need to address the obvious, as how can a universe of massive complexity, design and functionality spring from NON-intelligent, blind things? BTW, science doesn't claim to know HOW the universe came to exist or by whatever Agent - it only describes WHAT occurred. But if you don't subscribe to what science says about WHAT happened, why do you even care about what science brings to the question per its many observations.

So, Ken, if you don't believe an intelligence was required to form what came into existence physically at the moment of the Big Bang - or even if you merely believe that SOME THING or THINGS were eternal, then your denial that whatever eternally existed also had to be intelligent has but ONE alternative - and that is that whatever eternal thing or things the universe sprang from was NON-intelligent / non-self or otherwise aware of anything at all. And THAT (non-intelligent) alternative means you have to believe that stupendous design and complexity can arise from non-intelligent things. That's the equivalent (intelligence-wise) that blind rocks, given enough time, can create, design, calculate, strategize, control, see advantages - and all of that (which are all things that require an intelligence!). As A and B are your ONLY choices - A) either an Intelligence explains what exists, or B) what exists has it's origins in blind, non-intelligent things - which is illogical to believe, because it's based upon nothing at all. AND it's also illogical because there is no reason, scientific or otherwise to believe non-intelligent things can cause and organize, on a massive scale, things of unfathomable complexity. As without an Intelligence, that is exactly the only other option you have.

What is quite apparent, Ken, is that you believe what you believe, not because of science or any evidence whatsoever, but only because you want to believe the impossible - and not because it's backed by logic or any science.

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Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

#67

Post by Kenny » Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:08 pm

Ken: Because science doesn't claim a time when nothing existed, and they definitely don't claim something massively intelligent and powerful had to exist to design the components etc. etc; right?
Philip wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:49 am
Ken, you need to address the obvious, as how can a universe of massive complexity, design and functionality spring from NON-intelligent, blind things?
I don’t believe that happened.
Philip wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:49 am
BTW, science doesn't claim to know HOW the universe came to exist or by whatever Agent - it only describes WHAT occurred.
So why would you expect ME to know? Am I supposed to know more than the scientists?
Philip wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:49 am
But if you don't subscribe to what science says about WHAT happened, why do you even care about what science brings to the question per its many observations.
I didn’t say I don’t subscribe to what science says happened, I just don’t subscribe to what you said happened.
Philip wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:49 am
So, Ken, if you don't believe an intelligence was required to form what came into existence physically at the moment of the Big Bang - or even if you merely believe that SOME THING or THINGS were eternal, then your denial that whatever eternally existed also had to be intelligent has but ONE alternative - and that is that whatever eternal thing or things the universe sprang from was NON-intelligent / non-self or otherwise aware of anything at all. And THAT (non-intelligent) alternative means you have to believe that stupendous design and complexity can arise from non-intelligent things. That's the equivalent (intelligence-wise) that blind rocks, given enough time, can create, design, calculate, strategize, control, see advantages - and all of that (which are all things that require an intelligence!).
Can you prove intelligence cannot come from non intelligence?
Philip wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:49 am
As A and B are your ONLY choices - A) either an Intelligence explains what exists, or B) what exists has it's origins in blind, non-intelligent things - which is illogical to believe, because it's based upon nothing at all. AND it's also illogical because there is no reason, scientific or otherwise to believe non-intelligent things can cause and organize, on a massive scale, things of unfathomable complexity. As without an Intelligence, that is exactly the only other option you have.
Again; can you prove intelligence and order cannot come from non intelligence?
Philip wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:49 am
What is quite apparent, Ken, is that you believe what you believe, not because of science or any evidence whatsoever, but only because you want to believe the impossible - and not because it's backed by logic or any science.
What is quite apparent, Philip is that you believe what you believe, not because of science or any evidence whatsoever, but only because you want to believe the God did it - and not because it’s backed by logic or any science.
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Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

#68

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:12 am

Science can't make a claim on what is NOT observable, outside the hypothesis.
Now, scientists DO make claims beyond what is observable of course, it's called speculation.

Science can ONLY claim as FACT that the universe is expanding which means, logically, that it The expansion) had a beginning.
Science makes no comment on what, if anything, was there before the expansion.
Scientists CLAIM that it was, probably, a quantum singularity.

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Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

#69

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:13 am

Ken, do you believe that something can come from nothing?

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Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

#70

Post by Philip » Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:51 am

Ken: Can you prove intelligence cannot come from non intelligence?
I don't have to prove it - as it's exceptionally obvious, as such has never been observed even once. And our most intelligent thinkers and scientists have only scarcely begun to understand how some of nature's and the universe's mechanisms operate, but what we do know is these things have many massively complex components and immense sophistication in how they operate. So, for one to believe our most intelligent observers and scientists, after centuries of observations, can barely understand some of these many complex mechanisms, and yet believe a NON-intelligence can produce them - well, that is beyond absurd.

BTW, the first thing one must ask is what IS intelligence? How would any knowledgeable person define it? In a nutshell, it involves having the ability to see, perceive / think, understand, gather and seek information, strategize and design ways to further accumulate that data (or knowledge), AND to apply it, AND to measure results which can the be reprocessed per such abilities! So, an intelligent entity has the ability to constantly recognize and seek data AND to apply it - which is what wisdom is. Wisdom is more than just having intelligence, as it is the ability to APPLY knowledge.

Now, I think we can name a number of clearly non-intelligent things - and not one of them have EVER shown such abilities as in the paragraph above this one. Science sees only WHAT things do, but NO such things can create themselves. And every material thing comes from some other material thing or previous process. But why they exist and why they operate as they do, often, no one knows - beyond other causes - which are sometimes known, and sometimes not known. The scientific method of discovery all relies upon applying its methodology to prior, ongoing and observable things.
Ken: Again; can you prove intelligence and order cannot come from non intelligence?
What I challenge you is to produce just one such example of this occurring!
Ken: What is quite apparent, Philip is that you believe what you believe, not because of science or any evidence whatsoever, but only because you want to believe the God did it - and not because it’s backed by logic or any science.
In the first place, I'm arguing that SOME massive Intelligence Source is required for what came into existence at the Big Bang and beyond it - and that it is entirely illogical to believe a non-intelligence could produce it. It's Identity, however, is a separate question. As for whether it was the God I worship - that's a different question that also has examinable evidence that can reasonably and logically be assigned probabilities. One certainly does not have to have a blind faith to find God! But as for this God's mere existence - and especially the NECESSITY that some immensely intelligent Being must exist - well, the science of probabilities DOES weigh in on the odds of these many uncaused things existing either by themselves OR of non-intelligent things producing them. So, as I don't believe in magic or of massive numbers of unfathomably complex things and designs just occurring as a result of blind things with zero capabilities - well, I simply don't have that kind of faith - which is an totally UNREASONABLE type of faith - as it's not based upon ANY evidences!

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Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

#71

Post by Kenny » Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:13 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:13 am
Ken, do you believe that something can come from nothing?
As I've said many times before, the idea that something can come from nothing makes no sense to me. Do you believe this is possible? If so, please explain how you are defining "nothing" and how this is possible.
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Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

#72

Post by Kenny » Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:59 pm

Philip wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:51 am
Ken: Can you prove intelligence cannot come from non intelligence?
I don't have to prove it - as it's exceptionally obvious, as such has never been observed even once. And our most intelligent thinkers and scientists have only scarcely begun to understand how some of nature's and the universe's mechanisms operate, but what we do know is these things have many massively complex components and immense sophistication in how they operate. So, for one to believe our most intelligent observers and scientists, after centuries of observations, can barely understand some of these many complex mechanisms, and yet believe a NON-intelligence can produce them - well, that is beyond absurd.

BTW, the first thing one must ask is what IS intelligence? How would any knowledgeable person define it? In a nutshell, it involves having the ability to see, perceive / think, understand, gather and seek information, strategize and design ways to further accumulate that data (or knowledge), AND to apply it, AND to measure results which can the be reprocessed per such abilities! So, an intelligent entity has the ability to constantly recognize and seek data AND to apply it - which is what wisdom is. Wisdom is more than just having intelligence, as it is the ability to APPLY knowledge.

Now, I think we can name a number of clearly non-intelligent things - and not one of them have EVER shown such abilities as in the paragraph above this one. Science sees only WHAT things do, but NO such things can create themselves. And every material thing comes from some other material thing or previous process. But why they exist and why they operate as they do, often, no one knows - beyond other causes - which are sometimes known, and sometimes not known. The scientific method of discovery all relies upon applying its methodology to prior, ongoing and observable things.
Ken: Again; can you prove intelligence and order cannot come from non intelligence?
What I challenge you is to produce just one such example of this occurring!
A human sperm, and a human egg.
Ken: What is quite apparent, Philip is that you believe what you believe, not because of science or any evidence whatsoever, but only because you want to believe the God did it - and not because it’s backed by logic or any science.
Philip wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:51 am
In the first place, I'm arguing that SOME massive Intelligence Source is required for what came into existence at the Big Bang and beyond it - and that it is entirely illogical to believe a non-intelligence could produce it. It's Identity, however, is a separate question. As for whether it was the God I worship - that's a different question that also has examinable evidence that can reasonably and logically be assigned probabilities. One certainly does not have to have a blind faith to find God! But as for this God's mere existence - and especially the NECESSITY that some immensely intelligent Being must exist - well, the science of probabilities DOES weigh in on the odds of these many uncaused things existing either by themselves OR of non-intelligent things producing them. So, as I don't believe in magic or of massive numbers of unfathomably complex things and designs just occurring as a result of blind things with zero capabilities - well, I simply don't have that kind of faith - which is an totally UNREASONABLE type of faith - as it's not based upon ANY evidences!
The point I was making is that there is no scientific evidence that backs up your claim.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

#73

Post by Philip » Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:53 pm

Ken, a human egg and sperm come from already existing and intelligent creatures - they didn't come from non-intelligent things!
Ken: The point I was making is that there is no scientific evidence that backs up your claim.
The scientific evidence points to massive complexity and mind-blowing precision and coordination of systems. And it certainly does not have any evidence that these things created themselves or that they could come from non-intelligent things. But the evidence itself reveals things so massively complex that to created such things - even to somewhat figure them out - requires intelligence. So, though they can't prove the Source, what they reveal is illogical to think they could have come from anything other than some incredible Intelligence. And that is obvious! Because your only other alternative is a source that is non-intelligent. And to believe that - wow, what incredible faith that takes, Ken. But again, it's not a rational faith!

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Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

#74

Post by Kenny » Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:19 pm

Philip wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:53 pm
Ken, a human egg and sperm come from already existing and intelligent creatures - they didn't come from non-intelligent things!
Sperm and egg; though they come from intelligence, they are not intelligent themselves. You asked for an example of intelligence coming from non intelligence; I think I’ve answered that question.

Ken: The point I was making is that there is no scientific evidence that backs up your claim.
Philip wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:53 pm
The scientific evidence points to massive complexity and mind-blowing precision and coordination of systems. And it certainly does not have any evidence that these things created themselves or that they could come from non-intelligent things. But the evidence itself reveals things so massively complex that to created such things - even to somewhat figure them out - requires intelligence. So, though they can't prove the Source, what they reveal is illogical to think they could have come from anything other than some incredible Intelligence. And that is obvious! Because your only other alternative is a source that is non-intelligent. And to believe that - wow, what incredible faith that takes, Ken. But again, it's not a rational faith!
All you’ve done is explain the leap of logic you’ve made to make your claim. You haven’t shown that your claim is backed up by science.
RickD wrote
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Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

#75

Post by Kenny » Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:20 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:12 am
Science can't make a claim on what is NOT observable, outside the hypothesis.
Now, scientists DO make claims beyond what is observable of course, it's called speculation.

Science can ONLY claim as FACT that the universe is expanding which means, logically, that it The expansion) had a beginning.
Science makes no comment on what, if anything, was there before the expansion.
Scientists CLAIM that it was, probably, a quantum singularity.
Excellent points!
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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