Question: What is Math?

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Kurieuo
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Re: Question: What is Math?

#31

Post by Kurieuo » Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:00 pm

Kenny wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
Kenny wrote:I doubt I know enough about Higgs Boson to give you the type of answer you’re looking for, but let me put it this way; if a formula or system created by a real person is able to be used to predict the trajectory of something real, that doesn’t make the system real, just the person using it. Math would not exist if humans did not invent it.
Ken, here is an outworking I see of your thinking.

At the foundation of Physics is Math. If humans invent Math, then humans invent Physics.
The Physical World is founded upon Physics which is invented by humans.
How could the physical world be founded upon physics when it existed prior to physics?
:shock: :econfused: Are you being purposefully obtuse Kenny...?
What do you think the "physical world" is if physics isn't a part of it y:-/
  • The term "physicalism" was first coined by the Austrian philosopher Otto Neurath (1882 - 1945) in the early 20th Century. In some ways, the term "physicalism" is a preferable one to the closely related concept of Materialism because it has evolved with the physical sciences to incorporate far more sophisticated notions of physicality than just matter, for example wave/particle relationships and non-material forces produced by particles. Physicalism can also be considered a variety of Naturalism (the belief that nature is all exists, and that all things supernatural therefore do not exist). (http://www.philosophybasics.com/branch_physicalism.html)
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Re: Question: What is Math?

#32

Post by Kenny » Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:57 pm

Kurieuo wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
Kenny wrote:I doubt I know enough about Higgs Boson to give you the type of answer you’re looking for, but let me put it this way; if a formula or system created by a real person is able to be used to predict the trajectory of something real, that doesn’t make the system real, just the person using it. Math would not exist if humans did not invent it.
Ken, here is an outworking I see of your thinking.

At the foundation of Physics is Math. If humans invent Math, then humans invent Physics.
The Physical World is founded upon Physics which is invented by humans.
How could the physical world be founded upon physics when it existed prior to physics?
:shock: :econfused: Are you being purposefully obtuse Kenny...?
What do you think the "physical world" is if physics isn't a part of it y:-/
  • The term "physicalism" was first coined by the Austrian philosopher Otto Neurath (1882 - 1945) in the early 20th Century. In some ways, the term "physicalism" is a preferable one to the closely related concept of Materialism because it has evolved with the physical sciences to incorporate far more sophisticated notions of physicality than just matter, for example wave/particle relationships and non-material forces produced by particles. Physicalism can also be considered a variety of Naturalism (the belief that nature is all exists, and that all things supernatural therefore do not exist). (http://www.philosophybasics.com/branch_physicalism.html)
Physics is the study of matter, energy, and force AKA the physical world. The physical world did not originate from physics.

Ken
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Re: Question: What is Math?

#33

Post by Kurieuo » Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:28 pm

I guess there was no motion if no one saw or measured it.
Maybe you can try and understand what my wife posted.
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Re: Question: What is Math?

#34

Post by Nicki » Thu Apr 21, 2016 12:48 am

Kurieuo wrote:I guess there was no motion if no one saw or measured it.
Maybe you can try and understand what my wife posted.
I'm inclined to agree with the non-Christians - maths and physics are the study and measuring of the natural world, not part of the natural world itself. Things still move if no one measures their speed, it's just that no one knows how fast they're going. A certain kind of plant may have grown to a certain height before anyone came along and said it was ten inches high, then someone else said it was 25 centimetres, and another person three hand-widths. God made (one way or another) the plant to grow as it did and I suppose he knew people would be able to measure it in different ways, but that's not a quality of the plant in itself.

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Re: Question: What is Math?

#35

Post by RickD » Thu Apr 21, 2016 3:30 am

Would this be fair?

Physics was discovered. But it has "existed", as long as the physical world has existed.

In the same way, Ben Franklin discovered electricity. He didn't invent it.
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Re: Question: What is Math?

#36

Post by Nicki » Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:10 am

RickD wrote:Would this be fair?

Physics was discovered. But it has "existed", as long as the physical world has existed.

In the same way, Ben Franklin discovered electricity. He didn't invent it.
Yes, but electricity is a natural force - physics is the study of natural forces but it's not those forces itself. I should have said about the plant, it is a property of the plant that it can be measured in different ways, but the actual measurement is not a property of it.

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Re: Question: What is Math?

#37

Post by Kenny » Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:43 am

Nicki wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:I guess there was no motion if no one saw or measured it.
Maybe you can try and understand what my wife posted.
I'm inclined to agree with the non-Christians - maths and physics are the study and measuring of the natural world, not part of the natural world itself. Things still move if no one measures their speed, it's just that no one knows how fast they're going.
excellent point; you took the words right out of my mouth

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Re: Question: What is Math?

#38

Post by Kenny » Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:46 am

Mrs K wrote:
Kenny wrote:Does math exist? Of course not! Math does not exist by itself, it only exist within the context of human thought; yes humans created math.
It isn’t a coincidence that math is based upon the 10 and humans have 10 fingers. If we had 12 fingers math would be completely different. Math no more exist than numbers exist.
Numbers are representative tokens humans imagine to represent things that actually do exist.
Math is a system humans created to calculate these representative tokens that are used to represent things that do exist.
It's as simple as that.

Ken
So, the number of fingers would not change that reality. Those facts/concepts are Mathematical Laws (like Physical Laws). Having 12 fingers (or no fingers) would not change that 2*7=14.

Humans are pretty clever, right? Why would be limit ourselves to a number system based on 10 fingers when we could make up any system we wanted? In fact we have other number system, e.g. binary, but it seems no matter what number system we use 2*7=14 (in whatever system defines it).

So math concepts/facts would not look very different at all... just the math language.
But it would be like comparing the word for "apple" in English, Arabic and Japanese.
Just because the words are written different, they still describe the exact same thing.
Consider this hypothetical if humans had 6 fingers on each hand instead of 5, and the numeral system in place was based upon the total number of fingers we have, so it looked like this:
0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,#,@ 10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,1#,1@,20
Under such a numeral system 7*2 =12.

Ken
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Re: Question: What is Math?

#39

Post by EssentialSacrifice » Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:08 am

Consider this hypothetical if humans had 6 fingers on each hand instead of 5 = So math concepts/facts would not look very different at all... just the math language.

Are you seeing the forest for the trees here Ken. Our man-made definitions have no bearing on the actuality of universal reality... words like math are simply our definition of explaining what is actually happening. y:-? y*-:)
It happens... just so.. whether we define it or not, in a precise, repeatable understandable way mathematically.
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Re: Question: What is Math?

#40

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:38 am

Nicki wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:I guess there was no motion if no one saw or measured it.
Maybe you can try and understand what my wife posted.
I'm inclined to agree with the non-Christians - maths and physics are the study and measuring of the natural world, not part of the natural world itself. Things still move if no one measures their speed, it's just that no one knows how fast they're going. A certain kind of plant may have grown to a certain height before anyone came along and said it was ten inches high, then someone else said it was 25 centimetres, and another person three hand-widths. God made (one way or another) the plant to grow as it did and I suppose he knew people would be able to measure it in different ways, but that's not a quality of the plant in itself.
The speed would still be the same even if no one measured it and the plant would still have grown to the same height if no one measured it.

You are confusing the essences of math/physics with the process of math/physics.

Math and physics are ways of expressing what is happening in the observable world ( and beyond perhaps), BUT they ARE happening.

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Re: Question: What is Math?

#41

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:40 am

Physics is the study of matter, energy, and force AKA the physical world. The physical world did not originate from physics.

Ken
How do you know that Ken?
How do you KNOW that what physics describes wasn't already there before it came to be?

I mean, a triangle has 3 sides even if there never existed a triangle, ever.

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Re: Question: What is Math?

#42

Post by RickD » Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:00 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Physics is the study of matter, energy, and force AKA the physical world. The physical world did not originate from physics.

Ken
How do you know that Ken?
How do you KNOW that what physics describes wasn't already there before it came to be?

I mean, a triangle has 3 sides even if there never existed a triangle, ever.
Nuh uh. y[-(

Humans invented the triangle. Otherwise how would it get its name.

Just like humans invented God, and called Him God. Duh!!
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Re: Question: What is Math?

#43

Post by Kenny » Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:25 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Physics is the study of matter, energy, and force AKA the physical world. The physical world did not originate from physics.

Ken
How do you know that Ken?
How do you KNOW that what physics describes wasn't already there before it came to be?
Physics is the study of the physical. How is it possible to study the physical prior to the physical existing?
PaulSacramento wrote: I mean, a triangle has 3 sides even if there never existed a triangle, ever.
Things have shapes. People gave names to those shapes. The “thing” existed before it’s shape was given a name.

Ken
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Re: Question: What is Math?

#44

Post by Kenny » Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:29 am

EssentialSacrifice wrote:Consider this hypothetical if humans had 6 fingers on each hand instead of 5 = So math concepts/facts would not look very different at all... just the math language.

Are you seeing the forest for the trees here Ken. Our man-made definitions have no bearing on the actuality of universal reality... words like math are simply our definition of explaining what is actually happening. y:-? y*-:)
It happens... just so.. whether we define it or not, in a precise, repeatable understandable way mathematically.
My point was if humans had 6 fingers on each hand instead of 5, I don't think the sum of 7x2 would still equal 14

Ken
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Re: Question: What is Math?

#45

Post by Kenny » Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:33 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Nicki wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:I guess there was no motion if no one saw or measured it.
Maybe you can try and understand what my wife posted.
I'm inclined to agree with the non-Christians - maths and physics are the study and measuring of the natural world, not part of the natural world itself. Things still move if no one measures their speed, it's just that no one knows how fast they're going. A certain kind of plant may have grown to a certain height before anyone came along and said it was ten inches high, then someone else said it was 25 centimetres, and another person three hand-widths. God made (one way or another) the plant to grow as it did and I suppose he knew people would be able to measure it in different ways, but that's not a quality of the plant in itself.
The speed would still be the same even if no one measured it and the plant would still have grown to the same height if no one measured it.

You are confusing the essences of math/physics with the process of math/physics.

Math and physics are ways of expressing what is happening in the observable world ( and beyond perhaps), BUT they ARE happening.
Height and speed do not exist by themselves; they only exist in the context of something else that does exist by itself.

Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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