Why is it so difficult to believe in God?

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
abelcainsbrother
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Re: Why is it so difficult to believe in God?

#121

Post by abelcainsbrother » Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:35 pm

Kenny wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Kenny wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:Ken demanded proof from me while going on his opinion without proof and evidence.It is intellectual dishonesty which is why I demand the same proof and evidence that they do when it comes to God,they ignore our evidence while having none just going on their opinion or non-peer reviewed scientific ideas in some cases.
Perhaps you should go back and read what was said. I was very clear that it was NOT my opinion. I was just giving examples of what a person COULD believe. You made a claim, so I asked you to back it up. I have nothing to back up because I never made any claims.

Ken
abelcainsbrother wrote: Ken,it is impossible to reject the reasons I gave for why God is the most logical cause for Dark matter,
I disagree! I've rejected many of your claims and I have yet to do anything that could be considered Impossible.
abelcainsbrother wrote: as soon as you reject it,you are doing so based on your opinion without any evidence or logic behind it,just your biased opinion.
I rejected your claims because you have yet to provide any credible evidence to support your claim
abelcainsbrother wrote: You think that by rejecting evidence and logical reasons to believe in God,you are somehow excused from wanting to get to the truth,but you are not excused,nobody is,unless they could careless what the truth is and are just going on opinions.I don't know will not and does not work when you are rejecting evidence and logical reasons to believe God caused Dark Matter.
I may not know all the right answers, but I can sometimes recognize a wrong answer when presented with one. Here is how I see it; if you are trying to convince me that A+B=C, you need to provide evidence to my satisfaction that C is the correct answer if you expect me to be convinced.
If I reject your claim of C as the correct answer, I will explain in detail why I have rejected your answer as the correct one. But because I have rejected your claim, it doesn't mean I have the right answer and it doesn't mean I have no interest in knowing the correct answer; all it means is your answer does not sound realistic to me. So when I say I don't know, it isn't a cop-out, I am just being honest in saying I may not know the right answer, but I can recognize your answer as the wrong one.
abelcainsbrother wrote: Instead of just going on your biased opinion,while not caring or wanting to know and discover truth you should just realize that right now at this present time,with all of the scientific knowledge man has been able to gather,the evidence right now still points to God as the cause of everything in the Universe,
What scientific evidence points to God?
abelcainsbrother wrote: not just dark matter,and rejecting this based on a biased opinion without having any reason to think otherwise is intellectual laziness.
I've explained in great detail why I have rejected your claims. That is hardly intellectual laziness.
abelcainsbrother wrote: You can know the truth based on the knowledge we have so far but you have to be willing to accept it and you are not doing it for some reason.
Knowledge WE have? Who is this "we" you speak of?

Ken
All you do is deny evidence and logical conclusions to believe God caused Dark matter to hold to your biased opinion,without any evidence.You think you have made a point when you deny evidence and reasons for God and then claim you have not convinced me and I don't know.But it is easy to do what you do and requires no evidence,reason or anything to hold to your biased no evidence opinion.You have no reason to reject God based on your biased "I don't know" opinion and it shows that you would rather go on your no evidence opinion than face the evidence for God while pretending we don't know.
So in other words, you have no evidence to back up any of the claims you've made. Got it!

Ken
You've got it backwards. I have evidence and logic on my side,it is you that don't.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Why is it so difficult to believe in God?

#122

Post by Kenny » Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:27 am

abelcainsbrother wrote:
Kenny wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Kenny wrote: Perhaps you should go back and read what was said. I was very clear that it was NOT my opinion. I was just giving examples of what a person COULD believe. You made a claim, so I asked you to back it up. I have nothing to back up because I never made any claims.

Ken
abelcainsbrother wrote: Ken,it is impossible to reject the reasons I gave for why God is the most logical cause for Dark matter,
I disagree! I've rejected many of your claims and I have yet to do anything that could be considered Impossible.
abelcainsbrother wrote: as soon as you reject it,you are doing so based on your opinion without any evidence or logic behind it,just your biased opinion.
I rejected your claims because you have yet to provide any credible evidence to support your claim
abelcainsbrother wrote: You think that by rejecting evidence and logical reasons to believe in God,you are somehow excused from wanting to get to the truth,but you are not excused,nobody is,unless they could careless what the truth is and are just going on opinions.I don't know will not and does not work when you are rejecting evidence and logical reasons to believe God caused Dark Matter.
I may not know all the right answers, but I can sometimes recognize a wrong answer when presented with one. Here is how I see it; if you are trying to convince me that A+B=C, you need to provide evidence to my satisfaction that C is the correct answer if you expect me to be convinced.
If I reject your claim of C as the correct answer, I will explain in detail why I have rejected your answer as the correct one. But because I have rejected your claim, it doesn't mean I have the right answer and it doesn't mean I have no interest in knowing the correct answer; all it means is your answer does not sound realistic to me. So when I say I don't know, it isn't a cop-out, I am just being honest in saying I may not know the right answer, but I can recognize your answer as the wrong one.
abelcainsbrother wrote: Instead of just going on your biased opinion,while not caring or wanting to know and discover truth you should just realize that right now at this present time,with all of the scientific knowledge man has been able to gather,the evidence right now still points to God as the cause of everything in the Universe,
What scientific evidence points to God?
abelcainsbrother wrote: not just dark matter,and rejecting this based on a biased opinion without having any reason to think otherwise is intellectual laziness.
I've explained in great detail why I have rejected your claims. That is hardly intellectual laziness.
abelcainsbrother wrote: You can know the truth based on the knowledge we have so far but you have to be willing to accept it and you are not doing it for some reason.
Knowledge WE have? Who is this "we" you speak of?

Ken
All you do is deny evidence and logical conclusions to believe God caused Dark matter to hold to your biased opinion,without any evidence.You think you have made a point when you deny evidence and reasons for God and then claim you have not convinced me and I don't know.But it is easy to do what you do and requires no evidence,reason or anything to hold to your biased no evidence opinion.You have no reason to reject God based on your biased "I don't know" opinion and it shows that you would rather go on your no evidence opinion than face the evidence for God while pretending we don't know.
So in other words, you have no evidence to back up any of the claims you've made. Got it!

Ken
You've got it backwards. I have evidence and logic on my side,it is you that don't.
Well if you've got evidence and logic on your side, PRESENT SOME!!! For the ump-teen time you have been asked by me (and others) to present any evidence you have to back up your claims. If you have evidence, present it, and we can have a discussion.

Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Why is it so difficult to believe in God?

#123

Post by Hortator » Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:42 am

Kenny wrote: Well if you've got evidence and logic on your side, PRESENT SOME!!! For the ump-teen time you have been asked by me (and others) to present any evidence you have to back up your claims. If you have evidence, present it, and we can have a discussion.

Ken
http://www.godandscience.org

These forums are actually an extension of the main website, not the other way around. If you have a question, you should go here first, because chances are high it has been asked and answered to a reasonable satisfaction, if not more so.

Go to town with Rich Deem's essays, Kenny. I'm sure you'll find what you're looking for. His website is quite old, and so, over the years he has gathered a fair amount of arguments and their respective solutions.

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Re: Why is it so difficult to believe in God?

#124

Post by edwardmurphy » Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:57 am

Hortator wrote:http://www.godandscience.org

These forums are actually an extension of the main website, not the other way around. If you have a question, you should go here first, because chances are high it has been asked and answered to a reasonable satisfaction, if not more so.
So ACB makes a bunch of bold claims and we're supposed to determine precisely what he meant by them and then track down his specific sources in order to better understand a position that he endlessly repeats but never clarifies or supports?

Nope.
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Re: Why is it so difficult to believe in God?

#125

Post by RickD » Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:13 pm

Is think Hortador was suggesting, that if anyone really wanted to see evidence for God's existence, they can click on the link from the home site.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Why is it so difficult to believe in God?

#126

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Feb 19, 2016 1:14 pm

There is no ONE SINGLE line of evidence that can lead someone to believe in God ( outside of divine revelation of course).
Of course the same goes for the vast majority of things we take as facts also (like evolution, archaeology, cosmology, etc).

We have multiple lines/arguments for God ranging for Aquinas' 5 ways to the various ontological arguments to arguments for absolute morals to, well:

The Argument from Change
The Argument from Efficient Causality
The Argument from Time and Contingency
The Argument from Degrees of Perfection
The Design Argument
The Kalam Argument
The Argument from Contingency
The Argument from the World as an Interacting Whole
The Argument from Miracles
The Argument from Consciousness
The Argument from Truth
The Argument from the Origin of the Idea of God
The Ontological Argument
The Moral Argument
The Argument from Conscience
The Argument from Desire
The Argument from Aesthetic Experience
The Argument from Religious Experience
The Common Consent Argument
Pascal's Wager


Point is that while NO SINGLE one will probably convince anyone, the sum total should be enough to at least convince one that there are logical reasons to believe in God.

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Re: Why is it so difficult to believe in God?

#127

Post by Hortator » Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:10 pm

RickD wrote:Is think Hortador was suggesting, that if anyone really wanted to see evidence for God's existence, they can click on the link from the home site.
I could have added a qualifier like, "for those that desire to" but I know Kenny is a sincere seeker.

It's like I tell people on other websites, "lurk moar" Lurk around!

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Re: Why is it so difficult to believe in God?

#128

Post by abelcainsbrother » Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:04 pm

Kenny wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Kenny wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Kenny wrote:

I disagree! I've rejected many of your claims and I have yet to do anything that could be considered Impossible.


I rejected your claims because you have yet to provide any credible evidence to support your claim

I may not know all the right answers, but I can sometimes recognize a wrong answer when presented with one. Here is how I see it; if you are trying to convince me that A+B=C, you need to provide evidence to my satisfaction that C is the correct answer if you expect me to be convinced.
If I reject your claim of C as the correct answer, I will explain in detail why I have rejected your answer as the correct one. But because I have rejected your claim, it doesn't mean I have the right answer and it doesn't mean I have no interest in knowing the correct answer; all it means is your answer does not sound realistic to me. So when I say I don't know, it isn't a cop-out, I am just being honest in saying I may not know the right answer, but I can recognize your answer as the wrong one.


What scientific evidence points to God?


I've explained in great detail why I have rejected your claims. That is hardly intellectual laziness.


Knowledge WE have? Who is this "we" you speak of?

Ken
All you do is deny evidence and logical conclusions to believe God caused Dark matter to hold to your biased opinion,without any evidence.You think you have made a point when you deny evidence and reasons for God and then claim you have not convinced me and I don't know.But it is easy to do what you do and requires no evidence,reason or anything to hold to your biased no evidence opinion.You have no reason to reject God based on your biased "I don't know" opinion and it shows that you would rather go on your no evidence opinion than face the evidence for God while pretending we don't know.
So in other words, you have no evidence to back up any of the claims you've made. Got it!

Ken
You've got it backwards. I have evidence and logic on my side,it is you that don't.
Well if you've got evidence and logic on your side, PRESENT SOME!!! For the ump-teen time you have been asked by me (and others) to present any evidence you have to back up your claims. If you have evidence, present it, and we can have a discussion.

Ken
I don't debate one-sided where I have evidence you deny,while you have no evidence.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Why is it so difficult to believe in God?

#129

Post by Kenny » Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:30 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote:
Kenny wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Kenny wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
All you do is deny evidence and logical conclusions to believe God caused Dark matter to hold to your biased opinion,without any evidence.You think you have made a point when you deny evidence and reasons for God and then claim you have not convinced me and I don't know.But it is easy to do what you do and requires no evidence,reason or anything to hold to your biased no evidence opinion.You have no reason to reject God based on your biased "I don't know" opinion and it shows that you would rather go on your no evidence opinion than face the evidence for God while pretending we don't know.
So in other words, you have no evidence to back up any of the claims you've made. Got it!

Ken
You've got it backwards. I have evidence and logic on my side,it is you that don't.
Well if you've got evidence and logic on your side, PRESENT SOME!!! For the ump-teen time you have been asked by me (and others) to present any evidence you have to back up your claims. If you have evidence, present it, and we can have a discussion.

Ken
I don't debate one-sided where I have evidence you deny,while you have no evidence.
Dude! I never made a claim! What kind of evidence are you expecting from someone who never made a claim? You on the other hand.....

Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Why is it so difficult to believe in God?

#130

Post by edwardmurphy » Sat Feb 20, 2016 10:21 am

This is off topic, but you guys have a tendency to add a single line to the end of a massive multi-quote, and I wish you wouldn't do that. I swear sometimes I do more scrolling than reading.

Anyway, carry on...
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Re: Why is it so difficult to believe in God?

#131

Post by RickD » Sat Feb 20, 2016 10:33 am

edwardmurphy wrote:This is off topic, but you guys have a tendency to add a single line to the end of a massive multi-quote, and I wish you wouldn't do that. I swear sometimes I do more scrolling than reading.

Anyway, carry on...
It keeps the context intact for those who are following along.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Why is it so difficult to believe in God?

#132

Post by edwardmurphy » Sat Feb 20, 2016 11:24 am

RickD wrote:It keeps the context intact for those who are following along.
If you're only responding to this:
abelcainsbrother wrote:You've got it backwards. I have evidence and logic on my side,it is you that don't.
Then there's no reason to quote all of this:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Kenny wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Kenny wrote: Perhaps you should go back and read what was said. I was very clear that it was NOT my opinion. I was just giving examples of what a person COULD believe. You made a claim, so I asked you to back it up. I have nothing to back up because I never made any claims.

Ken
abelcainsbrother wrote: Ken,it is impossible to reject the reasons I gave for why God is the most logical cause for Dark matter,
I disagree! I've rejected many of your claims and I have yet to do anything that could be considered Impossible.
abelcainsbrother wrote: as soon as you reject it,you are doing so based on your opinion without any evidence or logic behind it,just your biased opinion.
I rejected your claims because you have yet to provide any credible evidence to support your claim
abelcainsbrother wrote: You think that by rejecting evidence and logical reasons to believe in God,you are somehow excused from wanting to get to the truth,but you are not excused,nobody is,unless they could careless what the truth is and are just going on opinions.I don't know will not and does not work when you are rejecting evidence and logical reasons to believe God caused Dark Matter.
I may not know all the right answers, but I can sometimes recognize a wrong answer when presented with one. Here is how I see it; if you are trying to convince me that A+B=C, you need to provide evidence to my satisfaction that C is the correct answer if you expect me to be convinced.
If I reject your claim of C as the correct answer, I will explain in detail why I have rejected your answer as the correct one. But because I have rejected your claim, it doesn't mean I have the right answer and it doesn't mean I have no interest in knowing the correct answer; all it means is your answer does not sound realistic to me. So when I say I don't know, it isn't a cop-out, I am just being honest in saying I may not know the right answer, but I can recognize your answer as the wrong one.
abelcainsbrother wrote: Instead of just going on your biased opinion,while not caring or wanting to know and discover truth you should just realize that right now at this present time,with all of the scientific knowledge man has been able to gather,the evidence right now still points to God as the cause of everything in the Universe,
What scientific evidence points to God?
abelcainsbrother wrote: not just dark matter,and rejecting this based on a biased opinion without having any reason to think otherwise is intellectual laziness.
I've explained in great detail why I have rejected your claims. That is hardly intellectual laziness.
abelcainsbrother wrote: You can know the truth based on the knowledge we have so far but you have to be willing to accept it and you are not doing it for some reason.
Knowledge WE have? Who is this "we" you speak of?

Ken
All you do is deny evidence and logical conclusions to believe God caused Dark matter to hold to your biased opinion,without any evidence.You think you have made a point when you deny evidence and reasons for God and then claim you have not convinced me and I don't know.But it is easy to do what you do and requires no evidence,reason or anything to hold to your biased no evidence opinion.You have no reason to reject God based on your biased "I don't know" opinion and it shows that you would rather go on your no evidence opinion than face the evidence for God while pretending we don't know.
So in other words, you have no evidence to back up any of the claims you've made. Got it!

Ken
You've got it backwards. I have evidence and logic on my side,it is you that don't.
Just sayin'.
If you're accustomed to privilege equality may feel like oppression.

Before you ask why ask if.

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Re: Why is it so difficult to believe in God?

#133

Post by RickD » Sat Feb 20, 2016 11:45 am

I'm just sayin too. :D
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Why is it so difficult to believe in God?

#134

Post by edwardmurphy » Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:33 pm

RickD wrote:I'm just sayin too. :D
I know, but I'm sayin' that what you're sayin' is erroneous, with my argument being that the visual clutter from repeatedly quoting the entire conversation makes it harder to follow, not easier.
If you're accustomed to privilege equality may feel like oppression.

Before you ask why ask if.

The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction and the distinction between true and false no longer exist.

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Re: Why is it so difficult to believe in God?

#135

Post by abelcainsbrother » Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:43 pm

edwardmurphy wrote:
Hortator wrote:http://www.godandscience.org

These forums are actually an extension of the main website, not the other way around. If you have a question, you should go here first, because chances are high it has been asked and answered to a reasonable satisfaction, if not more so.
So ACB makes a bunch of bold claims and we're supposed to determine precisely what he meant by them and then track down his specific sources in order to better understand a position that he endlessly repeats but never clarifies or supports?

Nope.
It is better for the person themselves to verify for themselves,however it is just not me,many people have given evidence and reasons to believe and yet it is all ignored in order to hold to a biased no-God opinion without any evidence. And when called on it,it is reiterated that there is no evidence behind this no-God opinion with the cop-out I never made any claims.Without any evidence a person cannot make claims.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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