Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
zacchaeus wrote:But ken can you be 'convinced' without 'evidence', going based off your question above if evidence is required. ?
Are there limits on what you can choose to believe? IOW can you choose to believe something because it is easy or convent even if it sounds unrealistic?
zacchaeus wrote:I want to know if you have absolute empirical proof of God if you would then 'choose' to believe.
If I had empirical proof I wouldn't believe, I would know
Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
Kurieuo wrote:Here's a different kind of question Ken.
Since you've been here for the past two years or so.
Not that you're Christian or contemplating returning to Christ or the like.
I want to be clear there.
BUT, do you feel you have walked further away from Christ and/or Christians?
OR, do you feel somehow closer while still not really believing any of it?
I feel closer to Christians, but not Christ
Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
zacchaeus wrote:But ken can you be 'convinced' without 'evidence', going based off your question above if evidence is required. ?
Are there limits on what you can choose to believe? IOW can you choose to believe something because it is easy or convent even if it sounds unrealistic?
zacchaeus wrote:I want to know if you have absolute empirical proof of God if you would then 'choose' to believe.
If I had empirical proof I wouldn't believe, I would know
Ken
Sadly, knowledge of God rarely comes via empirical methods.
John 20:29 - Jesus said to him, 'Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.'
And yet we all believe something out of logically necessity without empirical proof.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)
I personally think there's not much choice involved in belief. If something's obviously true and you're fully convinced of it you can hardly believe otherwise - but that's knowing rather than believing. If something's more unknown you can be influenced by evidence one way or the other but that leads you to a certain level of belief - not so much belief that you've chosen. You can decide that the evidence is enough to trust in God, that he wants us to have faith in him even though he doesn't make himself completely obvious. Maybe that's what you 'choice' people were talking about
Ken has already said he believes he doesnt believe he chooses what to believe.
I think we do, especially when it comes to God.
(Oh, and im on a mission to convert Ken )
Especially when it comes to God? Or only when it comes to God. IOW does choosing to believe apply to everything in your life? Things like mechanics, politics, economics, health, safety, etc. IOW does choosing to believe apply to your life outside theism?
Ken
Know what? I don`t know. I suppose it does kinda depend on what we are talking about. Mechanics, politics, and all those you posted, well they are all so ingrained I can`t even remember a time when I didn`t believe in them.
Thinking it through a little more, maybe we only choose about God. But, even if that`s the case the fact remains it`s a choice. I guess what I`m trying to say is that I can physically show you that fire is hot so you would have to believe me but with God it`s different. I am totally and utterly convinced of God, I have the same access to Him as you do yet you don`t believe. It fascinates me as to why that is the case.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran
Kenny wrote:
My view is a bit closer to Audie's view on the issue where as I don't believe I choose what I believe. For me belief happens after reason and logic demands it; not before. While true; a person can choose to listen evidence that supports his agenda and he can choose to ignore evidence that may refute it, but he is still going with the evidence he receives even though he has control over what he receives. Hope that makes sense.
Ken
No Ken, you are misunderstanding what choosing to believe means.
Either you choose what to believe or don't believe in ( based on evidence, reasoning, personal experience, etc) or you are saying that you have NO CHOICE in what to believe or don't.
So which is it?
If Bill Gates (the richest man on Earth) offered to give you a billion dollars if you could choose to believe you could fly like a bird, could you convince yourself that you could do it? I can't; I may be able to pretend I have convinced myself in order to get the money, but deep down I would know I was lying. If I were able to choose what I beleive, I would be able to do this
Ken
That is not what I asked you Ken.
I’ve got a feeling we have different definitions of what it means to choose to believe. In an effort to prevent us from talking past each other let me get a few things straight first so I can know where you are coming from. Before you said we choose to believe based upon evidence, reasoning, or personal experience. Is this required? Or do you believe you can still choose to believe something without evidence, reason, or personal experience.
Ken
Choice is choice ken,m don't over complicate it.
People choose to believe that evidence = A or they choose NOT believe it.
Nicki wrote:I personally think there's not much choice involved in belief. If something's obviously true and you're fully convinced of it you can hardly believe otherwise - but that's knowing rather than believing. If something's more unknown you can be influenced by evidence one way or the other but that leads you to a certain level of belief - not so much belief that you've chosen. You can decide that the evidence is enough to trust in God, that he wants us to have faith in him even though he doesn't make himself completely obvious. Maybe that's what you 'choice' people were talking about
be·lief
bəˈlēf/
noun
1.
an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"
2.
trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
choice
CHois/Submit
noun
1.
an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.
It really isn't that difficult.
We ALL choose what to believe in and by that very act, what NOT to believe in.
Nicki wrote:I personally think there's not much choice involved in belief. If something's obviously true and you're fully convinced of it you can hardly believe otherwise - but that's knowing rather than believing. If something's more unknown you can be influenced by evidence one way or the other but that leads you to a certain level of belief - not so much belief that you've chosen. You can decide that the evidence is enough to trust in God, that he wants us to have faith in him even though he doesn't make himself completely obvious. Maybe that's what you 'choice' people were talking about
be·lief
bəˈlēf/
noun
1.
an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"
2.
trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
choice
CHois/Submit
noun
1.an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.
It really isn't that difficult.
We ALL choose what to believe in and by that very act, what NOT to believe in.
There are two different words for a very important reason: they mean different things.
Try this": You are falling from an airplane. You can choose (an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.) to think it is not true.
or you can believe it.
Ha. I gave you an either / or, two possibilities. Choose one!
Nicki wrote:I personally think there's not much choice involved in belief. If something's obviously true and you're fully convinced of it you can hardly believe otherwise - but that's knowing rather than believing. If something's more unknown you can be influenced by evidence one way or the other but that leads you to a certain level of belief - not so much belief that you've chosen. You can decide that the evidence is enough to trust in God, that he wants us to have faith in him even though he doesn't make himself completely obvious. Maybe that's what you 'choice' people were talking about
be·lief
bəˈlēf/
noun
1.
an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"
2.
trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
choice
CHois/Submit
noun
1.an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.
It really isn't that difficult.
We ALL choose what to believe in and by that very act, what NOT to believe in.
There are two different words for a very important reason: they mean different things.
Try this": You are falling from an airplane. You can choose (an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.) to think it is not true.
or you can believe it.
Ha. I gave you an either / or, two possibilities. Choose one!
If you are falling from a plane, there isn`t a choice though is there? A better example may be that you board the plane and believe that it won`t crash, despite the fact that sometimes they do. You choose to believe it won`t even though there is a chance it will.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran
Nicki wrote:I personally think there's not much choice involved in belief. If something's obviously true and you're fully convinced of it you can hardly believe otherwise - but that's knowing rather than believing. If something's more unknown you can be influenced by evidence one way or the other but that leads you to a certain level of belief - not so much belief that you've chosen. You can decide that the evidence is enough to trust in God, that he wants us to have faith in him even though he doesn't make himself completely obvious. Maybe that's what you 'choice' people were talking about
be·lief
bəˈlēf/
noun
1.
an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"
2.
trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
choice
CHois/Submit
noun
1.an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.
It really isn't that difficult.
We ALL choose what to believe in and by that very act, what NOT to believe in.
There are two different words for a very important reason: they mean different things.
Try this": You are falling from an airplane. You can choose (an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.) to think it is not true.
or you can believe it.
Ha. I gave you an either / or, two possibilities. Choose one!
If you are falling from a plane, there isn`t a choice though is there? A better example may be that you board the plane and believe that it won`t crash, despite the fact that sometimes they do. You choose to believe it won`t even though there is a chance it will.
There you go.
It seems to me that what we have here are two ways of looking at things:
1) People that understand that everything we do, including believing, involves a choice of some sort.
2) People that believe there is no choice, that you either believe or you don't and that, somehow, what you believe or do not believe is NOT a choice you make.
Nicki wrote:I personally think there's not much choice involved in belief. If something's obviously true and you're fully convinced of it you can hardly believe otherwise - but that's knowing rather than believing. If something's more unknown you can be influenced by evidence one way or the other but that leads you to a certain level of belief - not so much belief that you've chosen. You can decide that the evidence is enough to trust in God, that he wants us to have faith in him even though he doesn't make himself completely obvious. Maybe that's what you 'choice' people were talking about
be·lief
bəˈlēf/
noun
1.
an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"
2.
trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
choice
CHois/Submit
noun
1.an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.
It really isn't that difficult.
We ALL choose what to believe in and by that very act, what NOT to believe in.
There are two different words for a very important reason: they mean different things.
Try this": You are falling from an airplane. You can choose (an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.) to think it is not true.
or you can believe it.
Ha. I gave you an either / or, two possibilities. Choose one!
Can I remain agnostic? At least, if I'm sitting on the fence then there's a chance I'm not falling from a plane.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)
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