Does God really want us us to know He exists?

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
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Jac3510
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Re: Does God really want us us to know He exists?

#31

Post by Jac3510 » Tue Dec 23, 2014 6:00 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Jac3510 wrote:
Mallz wrote:1 Timothy 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
That would be an anthropopathism.
And no human can speak of God without it.
And so the notion of analogical predication.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Does God really want us us to know He exists?

#32

Post by Mallz » Tue Dec 23, 2014 7:35 pm

That would be an anthropopathism.
I'm not sold on this. Convince me?
analogical predication.
Elaborate?

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Re: Does God really want us us to know He exists?

#33

Post by Jac3510 » Tue Dec 23, 2014 8:55 pm

Mallz wrote:I'm not sold on this. Convince me?
Does God have wings? (PS 91:4)
Elaborate?
Without jargon, we can compare two things using the same words the same way (the term animal can be applied in the same way to both people and dogs), in different ways (the term bark is applied differently to dogs and trees), or in a similar way (the word wooden is applied literally to things made of wood, but similarly applied to a badly acted part, where it takes on the related connotation of "having no life in it" or "not animated"). The last of these is analogical predication. It's important to know because all our language about God is analogical, and that for the simple reason that all of our words refer to created things, which are necessarily finite and limited. That means that we can't use words in exactly the same way when we talk about God, because that would mean that God is finite and limited. But our language is not meaningless, as if language was of the second type. Rather, it's similar--of the third type. Our words are predicated to God analogically.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Does God really want us us to know He exists?

#34

Post by Mallz » Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:40 am

Does God have wings? (PS 91:4)
He shall cover you with His feathers,
And under His wings you shall take refuge;
His truth shall be your shield and buckler.

Yeah, I see what you're saying. I just don't read it like that, ya know? The objects of description in the sentence have a deeper meaning that is a more encompassing explanation of the truth being revealed. But I literally see the truth, but God literally doesn't have feathers or wings. I think the last sentence is pretty straight forward so I don't see another way to take it. But he does have wings. He is wings, He is feathers. Wings and feathers have their foundation of existence sprouting as an expression from God. So I literally see Him having feathers and wings, not just how it's physically revealed to us. Am I making sense?

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Re: Does God really want us us to know He exists?

#35

Post by Jac3510 » Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:25 am

Mallz wrote:God literally doesn't have feathers or wings. I think the last sentence is pretty straight forward so I don't see another way to take it. But he does have wings. He is wings, He is feathers. Wings and feathers have their foundation of existence sprouting as an expression from God. So I literally see Him having feathers and wings, not just how it's physically revealed to us. Am I making sense?
No :)

You can't say God has wings and say He does not have wings. And it is just wrong to say that God is wings in any sense,at least as far as I can tell. You are tying to get way too much metaphysical truth out of poetic language.

Better just to say the obvious. God does not have wings. The passage is figurative. The same is true with His human descriptions,including having hands and eye and desires and emotions.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Does God really want us us to know He exists?

#36

Post by TheQuestor » Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:30 am

Jac3510 wrote:
Mallz wrote:God literally doesn't have feathers or wings. I think the last sentence is pretty straight forward so I don't see another way to take it. But he does have wings. He is wings, He is feathers. Wings and feathers have their foundation of existence sprouting as an expression from God. So I literally see Him having feathers and wings, not just how it's physically revealed to us. Am I making sense?
No :)

You can't say God has wings and say He does not have wings. And it is just wrong to say that God is wings in any sense,at least as far as I can tell. You are tying to get way too much metaphysical truth out of poetic language.

Better just to say the obvious. God does not have wings. The passage is figurative. The same is true with His human descriptions,including having hands and eye and desires and emotions.
It can be said that a pilot, has earned his wings, but clearly the pilot does not have wings. Yet he can fly, and if he enters the astronaut corps, he may fly to the heavens.

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Re: Does God really want us us to know He exists?

#37

Post by MBPrata » Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:15 pm

Hey,I don't know anything about wings, but I thought I could stop by to brin this perspective on God's actions. It came from another topic in this very website.
God is not in the business of proving Himself to ANYONE other than those He chooses to ( we forget that sometimes).
This statement is quite creepy by itself, but that's not the point. The point is...coming back to this topic and reading the question that created it again (the question "Does God really want us to know He exists?"), it appears that the answer to this question isn't exactly "Yes.". After all, there was someone who answered a plain "Yes" to this question. But...if we consider this quote up here, the answer doesn't seem to be "Yes". It would be more like "Yes, but only to those He chooses to!". And that's not a "complete" yes; it's an yes with, let's say, conditions. Which is not a "yes" for every circumstances. And...well, that's still pretty creepy.

Now, understand I'm not saying that a single contradiction negates a whole line of thought; I'm totally against that logic. Still, we have two different answers from sources who - we assume - read the whole Bible, maybe some parts more than once. And if even the people who both read the whole Bible and are believers don't agree on something this important when understanding the God of the Bible, then I'm sort of coming back to an expression I used a lot: if there is a god, then we know absolutely nothing about Him and no book will help us knowing Him.

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Re: Does God really want us us to know He exists?

#38

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Dec 29, 2014 7:33 am

MBPrata wrote:Hey,I don't know anything about wings, but I thought I could stop by to brin this perspective on God's actions. It came from another topic in this very website.
God is not in the business of proving Himself to ANYONE other than those He chooses to ( we forget that sometimes).
This statement is quite creepy by itself, but that's not the point. The point is...coming back to this topic and reading the question that created it again (the question "Does God really want us to know He exists?"), it appears that the answer to this question isn't exactly "Yes.". After all, there was someone who answered a plain "Yes" to this question. But...if we consider this quote up here, the answer doesn't seem to be "Yes". It would be more like "Yes, but only to those He chooses to!". And that's not a "complete" yes; it's an yes with, let's say, conditions. Which is not a "yes" for every circumstances. And...well, that's still pretty creepy.

Now, understand I'm not saying that a single contradiction negates a whole line of thought; I'm totally against that logic. Still, we have two different answers from sources who - we assume - read the whole Bible, maybe some parts more than once. And if even the people who both read the whole Bible and are believers don't agree on something this important when understanding the God of the Bible, then I'm sort of coming back to an expression I used a lot: if there is a god, then we know absolutely nothing about Him and no book will help us knowing Him.
We need to distinguish between "natural revelation" ( How God is revealed in the natural world) and "divine/special revelation" ( How God chooses to reveal Himself to whomever He chooses to reveal Himself in a special way).

There is only SO much we can know/understand about God in regards to natural revelation because we are so LIMITED by our ability to understand things naturally (by observation and reason).
I recall how Thomas Aquinas, who wrote so much about God and His nature - First cause, unmoved mover, etc, etc, said that (after being given a divine revelation from God) all he had wrote meant nothing compared to what he know knew about God, how inferiour it was, how little it did justice to the magnificence of God.
Only those that have read Aquinas can truly appreciate what he means by this.

The point being is that God allows Us to know Him in whatever way we are ready to, able to, at any given time and there are those that He makes Himself know to even in a more personal way.

Lets not forget though that God HAS made Himself known to all in THE most personal way possible for those that CHOOSE to know Him:
In His Son, Jesus Christ, the embodiment of ALL that God is.

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Re: Does God really want us us to know He exists?

#39

Post by Mallz » Mon Dec 29, 2014 11:48 pm

No :)

lol :lol:
You can't say God has wings and say He does not have wings. And it is just wrong to say that God is wings in any sense,at least as far as I can tell. You are tying to get way too much metaphysical truth out of poetic language.
You're right. I meant for the latter in my paragraph to discount the former ^_^ And I dunno, that's how I naturally read it. I was typing as I was thinking, that's usually how I respond here :) I sit and read what I write afterwords to make sure there's no grammatical errors and that I'm being respectful (make sure that ego doesn't get in the way of me talking!)
Better just to say the obvious. God does not have wings. The passage is figurative. The same is true with His human descriptions,including having hands and eye and desires and emotions
That's my problem. I don't see it as figurative/symbolic. It's not obvious that way to me at all. Although I completely understand where you and everyone else are coming from. And the language used. But I see something else there.

Am I going to become a crazy person in the future?! If unguided most likely... :wave:

Edit: I could be crazy now O.o

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Re: Does God really want us us to know He exists?

#40

Post by RickD » Tue Dec 30, 2014 3:57 am

Mallz wrote:
That's my problem. I don't see it as figurative/symbolic. It's not obvious that way to me at all. Although I completely understand where you and everyone else are coming from. And the language used. But I see something else there.
Just wait til Jac's Divine Simplicity book is finished. Then it'll make more sense. I guarantee it will. ;)
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

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Re: Does God really want us us to know He exists?

#41

Post by Jac3510 » Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:56 pm

Mallz wrote:That's my problem. I don't see it as figurative/symbolic. It's not obvious that way to me at all. Although I completely understand where you and everyone else are coming from. And the language used. But I see something else there.
Then I wonder what your interpretive principles are. Does Jesus have hinges? After all, He says He is a door (John 10:9). Is Israel made out of wood, cellulose, and sugar? After all, God say that he is a vine (Hos. 10:1). Does God have vocal chords that are flat and shaped like a square due to the fat in His vocal fold ligaments? After all, that is how lions roar, and the Bible says that God roars like a lion (Heb 11:10)? Or perhaps Jesus has a tail and a mane, because He is a lion, right (Rev. 5:5)? And, by the way, does all this mean that God can't exist without oxygen? Because fire needs oxygen, and God is a consuming fire (Deut 4:24). And speaking of oxygen, are we to insist that oxygen is an essential component part of the gospel? After all, Jesus said that if we drink of the water He gives then we would never thirst again (John 4:14; 7:37). And while we're talking about water, should I take the fact that I do get thirsty, quite a few times a day actually, as evidence that I haven't believed the gospel?

All I'm saying is that there are metaphors in Scripture. You are going to get yourself in quite a bit of trouble if you try to read metaphors literally. For the life of me, I don't know why anyone would even try to do that. God's goal in Scripture is to communicate with us. Why, pray tell, would He violate the normal rules of communication if He is trying to communicate?!? God isn't a god of confusion, is He?
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Does God really want us us to know He exists?

#42

Post by Mallz » Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:38 pm

Hahahaha! :pound:
Yes they are metaphors. And metaphors are not literal but their meaning is. I'm not very good at articulating my thoughts so I'm gonna bow out :lol:

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Re: Does God really want us us to know He exists?

#43

Post by TheQuestor » Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:39 pm

MBPrata wrote:Christian fellows:

You know, there are days in which I believe in God (yeah, I have that difficulty to decide). But the more time passes, the less I believe in the God of the Bible. I mean...if God wants what is written in the Bible, it's rather unclear why He did things the way they are. Namely: does God really want us to know He exists?

Because if He does, He sure gave us some serious reasons not to believe in that! I know, Jesus came to the Earth, but maybe we'll talk about that later. My problem isn't that one; my problem is with the universe itself, the Earth, the human body and so on. Now, if God really wants us to believe He exists, I don't understand why He created such a universe. Let's see:


- He created a law by which particles can totally come out of "nowhere" (mr. Deem doesn't deny it:
Although it is possible for things such as particles to pop into existence from "nothing," it has never been shown that non-quantum-sized objects can perform such feats.
), thus leading us to think stuff can come out of nowhere with no divine intervention whatsoever
- He created a universe in which every single thing changes, thus leading us to think an "eternal" reality (e.g. Heaven) can not exist
- He (we assume) designed a lot of human-like creatures, thus giving us reasons to believe in evolution. Not to mention some really similar creatures...
- He made us sleep, thus leading us to think that a lesser quantity of electricity on the brain can obliterate all consciousness
- He made us dream and hallucinate, thus leading us to think "reality" comes from our brain and we can never be sure of what reality is


And I'm sure there are more. You see, I'm ok with thinking outside of the box and believing in a sentient, eternal, intelligent being creating our universe, but these apparent lacks of logic on God's thought really keep me away from belief. Well...at least from the belief in the God described in the Bible. Have you considered all this "clues" God gave us to think He isn't real? What are your thoughts on this?

I thank you in advance.
If God wants us to know that he exist, he is doing a pretty poor job of it, by letting people get their heads sawed off.

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Re: Does God really want us us to know He exists?

#44

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:25 pm

TheQuestor wrote:
MBPrata wrote:Christian fellows:

You know, there are days in which I believe in God (yeah, I have that difficulty to decide). But the more time passes, the less I believe in the God of the Bible. I mean...if God wants what is written in the Bible, it's rather unclear why He did things the way they are. Namely: does God really want us to know He exists?

Because if He does, He sure gave us some serious reasons not to believe in that! I know, Jesus came to the Earth, but maybe we'll talk about that later. My problem isn't that one; my problem is with the universe itself, the Earth, the human body and so on. Now, if God really wants us to believe He exists, I don't understand why He created such a universe. Let's see:


- He created a law by which particles can totally come out of "nowhere" (mr. Deem doesn't deny it:
Although it is possible for things such as particles to pop into existence from "nothing," it has never been shown that non-quantum-sized objects can perform such feats.
), thus leading us to think stuff can come out of nowhere with no divine intervention whatsoever
- He created a universe in which every single thing changes, thus leading us to think an "eternal" reality (e.g. Heaven) can not exist
- He (we assume) designed a lot of human-like creatures, thus giving us reasons to believe in evolution. Not to mention some really similar creatures...
- He made us sleep, thus leading us to think that a lesser quantity of electricity on the brain can obliterate all consciousness
- He made us dream and hallucinate, thus leading us to think "reality" comes from our brain and we can never be sure of what reality is


And I'm sure there are more. You see, I'm ok with thinking outside of the box and believing in a sentient, eternal, intelligent being creating our universe, but these apparent lacks of logic on God's thought really keep me away from belief. Well...at least from the belief in the God described in the Bible. Have you considered all this "clues" God gave us to think He isn't real? What are your thoughts on this?

I thank you in advance.
If God wants us to know that he exist, he is doing a pretty poor job of it, by letting people get their heads sawed off.

It's called free will and God is a respector of our choices whether they are good or bad. Unfortunately sawing of heads is a consequence of bad choices. :crying:
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Does God really want us us to know He exists?

#45

Post by TheQuestor » Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:36 pm

Danieltwotwenty wrote:
TheQuestor wrote:
MBPrata wrote:Christian fellows:

You know, there are days in which I believe in God (yeah, I have that difficulty to decide). But the more time passes, the less I believe in the God of the Bible. I mean...if God wants what is written in the Bible, it's rather unclear why He did things the way they are. Namely: does God really want us to know He exists?

Because if He does, He sure gave us some serious reasons not to believe in that! I know, Jesus came to the Earth, but maybe we'll talk about that later. My problem isn't that one; my problem is with the universe itself, the Earth, the human body and so on. Now, if God really wants us to believe He exists, I don't understand why He created such a universe. Let's see:


- He created a law by which particles can totally come out of "nowhere" (mr. Deem doesn't deny it:
Although it is possible for things such as particles to pop into existence from "nothing," it has never been shown that non-quantum-sized objects can perform such feats.
), thus leading us to think stuff can come out of nowhere with no divine intervention whatsoever
- He created a universe in which every single thing changes, thus leading us to think an "eternal" reality (e.g. Heaven) can not exist
- He (we assume) designed a lot of human-like creatures, thus giving us reasons to believe in evolution. Not to mention some really similar creatures...
- He made us sleep, thus leading us to think that a lesser quantity of electricity on the brain can obliterate all consciousness
- He made us dream and hallucinate, thus leading us to think "reality" comes from our brain and we can never be sure of what reality is


And I'm sure there are more. You see, I'm ok with thinking outside of the box and believing in a sentient, eternal, intelligent being creating our universe, but these apparent lacks of logic on God's thought really keep me away from belief. Well...at least from the belief in the God described in the Bible. Have you considered all this "clues" God gave us to think He isn't real? What are your thoughts on this?

I thank you in advance.
If God wants us to know that he exist, he is doing a pretty poor job of it, by letting people get their heads sawed off.

It's called free will and God is a respector of our choices whether they are good or bad. Unfortunately sawing of heads is a consequence of bad choices. :crying:
You just said that God respects people who saw other peoples heads off, are you aware of this?

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