How where ancient cultures and peoples saved?

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
Lonewolf
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How where ancient cultures and peoples saved?

#1

Post by Lonewolf » Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:53 pm

Native Americans, aborigines, pigmyes, celts, pre-Christian era peoples, etc. How do they fit into the plan of salvation? How are they to attain salvation, if any?
Your outward profession of having put on Christ, has as yet to put off Plato from your heart!

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Re: How where ancient cultures and peoples saved?

#2

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:21 pm

Lonewolf wrote:Native Americans, aborigines, pigmyes, celts, pre-Christian era peoples, etc. How do they fit into the plan of salvation? How are they to attain salvation, if any?
Salvation is available to all. Even Slovaks, Floridians and pygmies. Read your Bible.

As for Old Testament times, people were saved then just as they are now: by acknowledging God as Redeemer.

FL :incense:
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

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Re: How where ancient cultures and peoples saved?

#3

Post by Lonewolf » Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:25 pm

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
Lonewolf wrote:Native Americans, aborigines, pigmyes, celts, pre-Christian era peoples, etc. How do they fit into the plan of salvation? How are they to attain salvation, if any?
Salvation is available to all. Even Slovaks, Floridians and pygmies. Read your Bible.

As for Old Testament times, people were saved then just as they are now: by acknowledging God as Redeemer.

FL :incense:

Yeah, but how can they acknowledge the God of the OT when they had never heard of Him? Or had they?
Your outward profession of having put on Christ, has as yet to put off Plato from your heart!

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Re: How where ancient cultures and peoples saved?

#4

Post by B. W. » Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:07 pm

Lonewolf wrote:
Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
Lonewolf wrote:Native Americans, aborigines, pigmyes, celts, pre-Christian era peoples, etc. How do they fit into the plan of salvation? How are they to attain salvation, if any?
Salvation is available to all. Even Slovaks, Floridians and pygmies. Read your Bible.

As for Old Testament times, people were saved then just as they are now: by acknowledging God as Redeemer.

FL :incense:

Yeah, but how can they acknowledge the God of the OT when they had never heard of Him? Or had they?
This verse answers this...

Acts 17:26-30, ... and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.' 29 "Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. 30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent... NASB

As FL mentioned - they turned to God as their redeemer, turning away from the works of their own hands - God overlooked those times of what????

However, such folks would be a rare breed. Enoch was one midst say a million...

God knows what he is doing. He knows who will reject him completely as well as all their future kin who will not reject him. So on the account of those whom he foreknew will find him, he places some of the worst of our own ancestors to live in ancient times midst the darkest of times, so those he knows in the future can return to him as their personal redeemer. Now reread verse 26 again. Now Jesus came in time and place at the right time so the great commission would be launched. Any lost tribe appears to have been found now. Those that do not hear, God can place them in national groups however he so chooses for his own purposes. No injustice in any of it granting folks what they desire above God. Think on this...

There is no injustice with God but with us, much. Our greatest injustice is assigning blame on God for those far away people not hearing the message of Christ. God knows what he is doing and such knowledge as His is far too vast for us to even begin to get our minds around it completely. He knows all, see's all, all powerful, a consuming fire...

Hope this feeds you curiosity a bit :wave:

Have great day!
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Re: How where ancient cultures and peoples saved?

#5

Post by neo-x » Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:41 pm

No one is saved without Christ and his cross. Not people before Christ not after. That is why there is a need for preaching the gospel.

There is a reason why there is no prophecies for lands unknown to the people of the time, not in the great prophets, nor in the minor ones. If God showed these scattered unknown cultures of his redemption, it is lost to us. As B.W said and I'll say Paul hints at it but I am not sure if he talking about the known world at the time or the complete one. Most likely the former IMO.

But I am sure God is not unjust. He would treat such people fairly and with mercy. And we need not concern ourselves that God would be unfair in this regard.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


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Re: How where ancient cultures and peoples saved?

#6

Post by Lonewolf » Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:30 pm

I'm sorry gentlemen, but so far I'm not at all enlightened by the responses given.

How is someone born before Christ, in a land that never even heard of the God of Israel, how can that someone be saved?

When or how will their appointed times and boundaries come to be?

I'm sorry, but I'm just not buying that part about placing some of the worst of our ancestors in ancient times, and the ones He knows will more readibly accept Him, He places in the future when the gospel of good news is preached.
Your outward profession of having put on Christ, has as yet to put off Plato from your heart!

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Re: How where ancient cultures and peoples saved?

#7

Post by neo-x » Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:35 pm

Lonewolf wrote:I'm sorry gentlemen, but so far I'm not at all enlightened by the responses given.

How is someone born before Christ, in a land that never even heard of the God of Israel, how can that someone be saved?

When or how will their appointed times and boundaries come to be?

I'm sorry, but I'm just not buying that part about placing some of the worst of our ancestors in ancient times, and the ones He knows will more readibly accept Him, He places in the future when the gospel of good news is preached.
I can't speak for B.W or FL, since I do not fully agree with them. But I thought you would be aware of this, but let me rephrase it. Those who died pre-christ were redeemed at the cross. I think their souls awaited and when Christ went down those who wished to repent, repented and got saved. Those who hated God, didn't.

Those who die now, without knowing or hearing about Christ, shall be judged accordingly at the day of judgement. I think it will probably happen the similar way.

One thing which all, here agree is that God is not unjust.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

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Re: How where ancient cultures and peoples saved?

#8

Post by Lonewolf » Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:43 pm

Neo, can you expand on ~> "I think their souls awaited and when Christ went down those who wished to repent, repented and got saved. Those who hated God, didn't."

Are you saying that when Jesus died on the cross, that He then went down and preached to those who where in their grave?
Your outward profession of having put on Christ, has as yet to put off Plato from your heart!

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Re: How where ancient cultures and peoples saved?

#9

Post by neo-x » Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:45 pm

Lonewolf wrote:Neo, can you expand on ~> "I think their souls awaited and when Christ went down those who wished to repent, repented and got saved. Those who hated God, didn't."

Are you saying that when Jesus died on the cross, that He then went down and preached to those who where in their grave?
Yes I am saying that, where their souls awaited redemption.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

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Re: How where ancient cultures and peoples saved?

#10

Post by Lonewolf » Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:48 pm

well wouldn't that be almost like the teaching of purgatory? or a sort of a second chance? is that really biblical?
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Re: How where ancient cultures and peoples saved?

#11

Post by neo-x » Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:56 pm

Lonewolf wrote:well wouldn't that be almost like the teaching of purgatory? or a sort of a second chance? is that really biblical?
no. we are talking about people who never heard of Christ or of the gospel. how can it be a second chance?

As for the O.T people you really think someone with like of Esau or Cain would find God loving, even if he offered redemption. Some people will hate God, even if they are lost in eternal darkness and anguish. Some people just hate God and won't repent. And I think such as those would not even accept Christ, just like they never accepted God while they lived.

But more importantly, it is a theological concern. Because now we are saying that failing this, O.T people were saved before Christ died on the cross. That only means, Jesus is not THE WAY to heaven alone. Remember man is not saved by faith alone, but in whom the faith is. In other words we are not saved because we have faith in God. We are saved because our faith is in Christ's work and its not our faith which has saving power but Christ's work on the cross, on which we believe and are thus saved by extension to him.

So the pre-christ people must wait until Christ opens the door to heaven. I believe this happened at the cross.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

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Re: How where ancient cultures and peoples saved?

#12

Post by Lonewolf » Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:07 am

well, i beg to disagree with you in regards to the part of people being given a chance to repent and accept Christ after they died, because as it is written..

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many: and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation
(Hebrews 9:27-28).

Following death will be judgment... with respect to the words, thoughts and actions of every person alike. "God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." Paul told the Athenians that the true God has "appointed a day, in which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised Him from the dead."

It is "once around" for each of us. We live once. We die once. We will each be judged once, and give account of all our deeds.


And in response to..
But more importantly, it is a theological concern. Because now we are saying that failing this, O.T people were saved before Christ died on the cross. That only means, Jesus is not THE WAY to heaven alone. Remember man is not saved by faith alone, but in whom the faith is. In other words we are not saved because we have faith in God. We are saved because our faith is in Christ's work and its not our faith which has saving power but Christ's work on the cross, on which we believe and are thus saved by extension to him.

So the pre-christ people must wait until Christ opens the door to heaven. I believe this happened at the cross.
It is written..

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
Romans 2, verses 12-16

Aren't the laws of God written in every man’s heart, not just in the covenant people of Israel, but in all men? And are not God’s laws written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts?

Thus, in whatever age, in whichever nation, of any spiritual understanding, if faith in the unknown God are given the seven gifts of the spirit, wisdom, understanding, counsel, knowledge, fortitude, piety, and fear of the Lord (wonder and awe) and that same spirit abides in that individual, would that not account to him/her as faith, as it did for Abraham?

Isaiah. 11:12
The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him,
The spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The spirit of counsel and strength,
The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD.

The promise was made to Abraham long before the law. It points at Christ, and it refers to the promise found in Genesis chapter 12. In Thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. The law worketh wrath, by showing that every transgressor is exposed to the Divine displeasure. As God intended to give men a title to the promised blessings, so he appointed it to be by faith, that it might be wholly of grace, to make it sure to all who were of the like precious faith with Abraham, whether Jews or Gentiles, in all ages. Romans chapter four

Are we not all men/women God's children, per say?

And if we are created in His image, are we not His children? And if we are His children, are we not allowed to ask for bread? In whatever generation, in whichever nation? Will He not answer a prayer to Him from wherever or whomever it comes from?

Is it not written..

Or what man is there of you, whom if his
son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
Your outward profession of having put on Christ, has as yet to put off Plato from your heart!

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Re: How where ancient cultures and peoples saved?

#13

Post by neo-x » Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:45 am

You can disagree on the first, I admit there is room for it there. Though you end up in a problem. God is unfair and it moves into the second point below.

On the second part though. I believe you would be in grave error. Even if the law of God is written on the heart of everyone person, the law can't save. So engraving law on heart's without Christ's atonement means nothing.

More to the point, Abraham's faith didn't save him, God accounted it as righteousness to him. That doesn't mean Abraham was a new creature. Without Christ, man can't be a new creature. So Abraham waited for Christ as did every other person so that their faith may be completed. Christ's physical death had to happen, his blood had to be shed for everyone to be saved, including Adam, Abraham, moses etc.

Paul spent his life teaching that the law merely points to sin, it doesn't save. And yes faith is important but in what do we place our faith in?

You seem to think faith can alone save, no faith has to have been in christ's work on the cross. That is the faith that ends in salvation. In other words your faith has no power, but in whom your faith rests in, is the power that allows us to be redeemed.

that is why the author of Hebrew 11:13 says:
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Abraham saw the plan of redemption but even having faith he did not receive that promise in life and thus died in faith. So that one day when Christ finishes his work he too will be a part of that promise, his everlasting kingdom.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

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Re: How where ancient cultures and peoples saved?

#14

Post by Lonewolf » Wed Jul 16, 2014 4:43 pm

neo-x wrote:You can disagree on the first, I admit there is room for it there. Though you end up in a problem. God is unfair and it moves into the second point below.

On the second part though. I believe you would be in grave error. Even if the law of God is written on the heart of everyone person, the law can't save. So engraving law on heart's without Christ's atonement means nothing.

More to the point, Abraham's faith didn't save him, God accounted it as righteousness to him. That doesn't mean Abraham was a new creature. Without Christ, man can't be a new creature. So Abraham waited for Christ as did every other person so that their faith may be completed. Christ's physical death had to happen, his blood had to be shed for everyone to be saved, including Adam, Abraham, moses etc.

Paul spent his life teaching that the law merely points to sin, it doesn't save. And yes faith is important but in what do we place our faith in?

You seem to think faith can alone save, no faith has to have been in christ's work on the cross. That is the faith that ends in salvation. In other words your faith has no power, but in whom your faith rests in, is the power that allows us to be redeemed.

that is why the author of Hebrew 11:13 says:
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Abraham saw the plan of redemption but even having faith he did not receive that promise in life and thus died in faith. So that one day when Christ finishes his work he too will be a part of that promise, his everlasting kingdom.
Ey Neo, yeah what I believe and how I conversate by expounding various points and even thoughts, are not necessarily the same. I never said that "faith alone" saves, I did state that faith in that "unknown God, right? Abraham knew of God, but it wasn't like he knew already -for lack of a better way of putting it- the God of the later Israel, and he most certainly did not live to see Jesus. He believed the God that spoke to him, the same God who placed His laws in his heart and mind. Those are the laws that I'm talking about, not the law as to the laws given to the Israelites. Of course both laws are the same, in terms of God's commandments, but while the law itself was given to a chosen people, the same laws are the ones engraved in humans.

And yes of course I completely do agree with the analysis that Chris is the one who redeems the world, past, present and future and completes the work of faith by grace.
Your outward profession of having put on Christ, has as yet to put off Plato from your heart!

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Re: How where ancient cultures and peoples saved?

#15

Post by RickD » Wed Jul 16, 2014 4:58 pm

Lonewolf wrote:
And yes of course I completely do agree with the analysis that Chris is the one who redeems the world, past, present and future and completes the work of faith by grace.
Chris? Chris who? :mrgreen:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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