Is there a God?

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
Squible
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Re: Is there a God?

#346

Post by Squible » Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:57 pm

Kenny wrote:
Yeah I should have phrased it differently. I should have said atheism/theism is about belief, agnostic about knowledge. My bad!

Ken
Well there is more than one meaning.

But Anyway, based on what you seem to be focusing on..

Are you saying those who claim to be agnostic do not hold a belief about knowledge?

And are you also saying that when an agnostic says "God's existence cannot be known or is unknowable" that isn't a belief about God?

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Re: Is there a God?

#347

Post by Audie » Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:52 pm

Squible wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Yeah I should have phrased it differently. I should have said atheism/theism is about belief, agnostic about knowledge. My bad!

Ken
Well there is more than one meaning.

But Anyway, based on what you seem to be focusing on..

Are you saying those who claim to be agnostic do not hold a belief about knowledge?

And are you also saying that when an agnostic says "God's existence cannot be known or is unknowable" that isn't a belief about God?
It is and kind of a silly one, IMO.

Its a belief about God, and kind of a silly one IMO.

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Re: Is there a God?

#348

Post by Squible » Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:53 pm

Audie wrote: Its a belief about God, and kind of a silly one IMO.
Why?

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Re: Is there a God?

#349

Post by Audie » Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:05 pm

Squible wrote:
Audie wrote: Its a belief about God, and kind of a silly one IMO.
Why?
Unknowable? He could just show up and say hi!

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Re: Is there a God?

#350

Post by Squible » Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:10 pm

Audie wrote:
Squible wrote:
Audie wrote: Its a belief about God, and kind of a silly one IMO.
Why?
Unknowable? He could just show up and say hi!
:lol:

And that's what we Christians believe he did!

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Re: Is there a God?

#351

Post by Kurieuo » Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:40 pm

Audie wrote:
Kenny wrote:

Yeah I guess sometimes people loose interest; even in other people. But do you think people choose to loose interest?

Ken
I suppose some people actually can, or convince themselves they can, "choose" to believe.
I think it comes down to what is on our "table of beliefs".
Some might be for rational and logical reason, others might be for passional reasons.

Obviously, some beliefs are just not on our table -- therefore you cannot choose them.
Kenny, re: your "box of religion" it'd probably be more correct to say that it's under the table...
One day, maybe it'll make to on top of your table.

@Audie, regarding not being able to choose.
There was an example where someone online deceived me recently.
I had no reason to trust them further, but having found out I was deceived there was every reason to not believe anything they said.
Judges in courts work that way do they not? If discovered your lying than anything else you say is taken as a grain of salt.

BUT, guess what I chose out of:
1) "I'll trust they're now being honest with me" or
2) "I can't trust that they're being honest with me"

Am I stupid for choosing the trust the person and what they say?
I'd have no real tangible evidence or even reason to.
AND, I actually do trust and believe what they are telling me now.
Last edited by Kurieuo on Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is there a God?

#352

Post by Kenny » Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:58 pm

Squible wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Yeah I should have phrased it differently. I should have said atheism/theism is about belief, agnostic about knowledge. My bad!

Ken
Well there is more than one meaning.

But Anyway, based on what you seem to be focusing on..

Are you saying those who claim to be agnostic do not hold a belief about knowledge?

And are you also saying that when an agnostic says "God's existence cannot be known or is unknowable" that isn't a belief about God?
Squible
Are you saying those who claim to be agnostic do not hold a belief about knowledge?
Ken
I think point of view would be a better phrase, but I can go along with agnostics do hold a belief about knowledge.

squible
And are you also saying that when an agnostic says "God's existence cannot be known or is unknowable" that isn't a belief about God?
Ken
It is a belief about knowledge of God’s existence. Let me put it this way; when the Agnostic says:
God’s existence cannot be known or is unknowable
The subject is not God, but God’s existence, and the predicate is unknowable.
When the Theist says:
I believe God exists,”
Again; the subject is God’s existence, but the predicate is believe. The predicate for the Atheist/theist is about“belief/nonbelief” the predicate for the agnostic is about what is unknown.
I don't know if that was an adequate illistration to make my point but it was the best I could think of right now. Maybe I will think of a better one later

Ken
RickD wrote
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Re: Is there a God?

#353

Post by Kenny » Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:11 pm

Kurieuo wrote:
Audie wrote:
Kenny wrote:

Yeah I guess sometimes people loose interest; even in other people. But do you think people choose to loose interest?

Ken
I suppose some people actually can, or convince themselves they can, "choose" to believe.
I think it comes down to what is on our "table of beliefs".
Some might be for rational and logical reason, others might be for passional reasons.

Obviously, some beliefs are just not on our table -- therefore you cannot choose them.
Kenny, re: your "box of religion" it'd probably be more correct to say that it's under the table...
One day, maybe it'll make to on top of your table.

@Audie, regarding not being able to choose.
There was an example where someone online deceived me recently.
I had no reason to trust them further, but having found out I was deceived there was every reason to not believe anything they said.
Judges in courts work that way do they not? If discovered your lying than anything else you say is taken as a grain of salt.

BUT, guess what I chose out of:
1) "I'll trust they're now being honest with me" or
2) "I can't trust that they're being honest with me"

Am I stupid for choosing the trust the person and what they believe?
I'd have no real tangible evidence or even reason to.
AND, I actually do trust and believe what they are telling me now.
I am reminded of an old Islamic saying; "Forgive your neighbor but keep a close eye on your camel"

Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Is there a God?

#354

Post by Squible » Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:15 pm

Kenny wrote: Squible
Are you saying those who claim to be agnostic do not hold a belief about knowledge?
Ken
I think point of view would be a better phrase, but I can go along with agnostics do hold a belief about knowledge.
So when an agnostic says "something is not knowable or cannot be known" it is not a belief? And it's definitely not a belief about knowledge?
Kenny wrote: squible
And are you also saying that when an agnostic says "God's existence cannot be known or is unknowable" that isn't a belief about God?
Ken
It is a belief about knowledge of God’s existence. Let me put it this way; when the Agnostic says:
God’s existence cannot be known or is unknowable
The subject is not God, but God’s existence, and the predicate is unknowable.
When the Theist says:
I believe God exists,”
Again; the subject is God’s existence, but the predicate is believe. The predicate for the Atheist/theist is about“belief/nonbelief” the predicate for the agnostic is about what is unknown.
I don't know if that was an adequate illistration to make my point but it was the best I could think of right now. Maybe I will think of a better one later

Ken
So are you saying the subject is not God when its about Gods existence?

So let me get this straight.. Are you are saying when an agnostic says "God's existence cannot be known or is unknowable" it's not something about God? And it's not a belief?
Last edited by Squible on Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is there a God?

#355

Post by Audie » Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:44 pm

Kurieuo wrote:
Audie wrote:
Kenny wrote:

Yeah I guess sometimes people loose interest; even in other people. But do you think people choose to loose interest?

Ken
I suppose some people actually can, or convince themselves they can, "choose" to believe.
I think it comes down to what is on our "table of beliefs".
Some might be for rational and logical reason, others might be for passional reasons.

Obviously, some beliefs are just not on our table -- therefore you cannot choose them.
Kenny, re: your "box of religion" it'd probably be more correct to say that it's under the table...
One day, maybe it'll make to on top of your table.

@Audie, regarding not being able to choose.
There was an example where someone online deceived me recently.
I had no reason to trust them further, but having found out I was deceived there was every reason to not believe anything they said.
Judges in courts work that way do they not? If discovered your lying than anything else you say is taken as a grain of salt.

BUT, guess what I chose out of:
1) "I'll trust they're now being honest with me" or
2) "I can't trust that they're being honest with me"

Am I stupid for choosing the trust the person and what they say?
I'd have no real tangible evidence or even reason to.
AND, I actually do trust and believe what they are telling me now.
I feel it is quite unfair of you to be right about this.

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Re: Is there a God?

#356

Post by Audie » Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:48 pm

Squible wrote:
Audie wrote:
Squible wrote:
Audie wrote: Its a belief about God, and kind of a silly one IMO.
Why?
Unknowable? He could just show up and say hi!
:lol:

And that's what we Christians believe he did!
So you see why i think "unknowable" is silly.

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Re: Is there a God?

#357

Post by Squible » Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:40 pm

Audie wrote: So you see why i think "unknowable" is silly.
Indeed... :econfused:

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Re: Is there a God?

#358

Post by Kenny » Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:46 pm

Squible wrote:
Kenny wrote: Squible
Are you saying those who claim to be agnostic do not hold a belief about knowledge?
Ken
I think point of view would be a better phrase, but I can go along with agnostics do hold a belief about knowledge.
So when an agnostic says "something is not knowable or cannot be known" it is not a belief? And it's definitely not a belief about knowledge?
Kenny wrote: squible
And are you also saying that when an agnostic says "God's existence cannot be known or is unknowable" that isn't a belief about God?
Ken
It is a belief about knowledge of God’s existence. Let me put it this way; when the Agnostic says:
God’s existence cannot be known or is unknowable
The subject is not God, but God’s existence, and the predicate is unknowable.
When the Theist says:
I believe God exists,”
Again; the subject is God’s existence, but the predicate is believe. The predicate for the Atheist/theist is about“belief/nonbelief” the predicate for the agnostic is about what is unknown.
I don't know if that was an adequate illistration to make my point but it was the best I could think of right now. Maybe I will think of a better one later

Ken
So are you saying the subject is not God when its about Gods existence?

So let me get this straight.. Are you are saying when an agnostic says "God's existence cannot be known or is unknowable" it's not something about God? And it's not a belief?
Squible
So when an agnostic says "something is not knowable or cannot be known" it is not a belief? And it's definitely not a belief about knowledge?
Ken
It is! For the Agnostic it is a belief (or point of view) about knowledge, for the theist it is a belief (POV) about believing.

Squible
So are you saying the subject is not God when its about Gods existence?
Ken
That’s correct! The subject is not God (by himself) but God’s existence.

Squible
So let me get this straight.. Are you are saying when an agnostic says "God's existence cannot be known or is unknowable" it's not something about God? And it's not a belief?
Ken
It is something about God, it’s about his existence. And it is a belief (or point of view) about knowledge.

Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Is there a God?

#359

Post by Squible » Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:33 pm

Kenny wrote: Squible
So when an agnostic says "something is not knowable or cannot be known" it is not a belief? And it's definitely not a belief about knowledge?
Ken
It is! For the Agnostic it is a belief (or point of view) about knowledge, for the theist it is a belief (POV) about believing.
So now it is a belief? I thought theists and atheists just had those in your view...

Can you explain "For a theist is a belief about believing" please? And after you explain that can you please explain if you hold this to atheists as well?

And does this mean a theist or atheist isn't making a knowledge claim, when they say God exists or Does not exist respectively?

What about an agnostic who says "I don't believe God exists and I don't believe God does not exist" (and holds no position on whether it is knowable) how is that a belief about knowledge in your view?
Kenny wrote: Squible
So are you saying the subject is not God when its about Gods existence?
Ken
That’s correct! The subject is not God (by himself) but God’s existence.
So when someone talks about anything to do with Gods existence it isn't about God?
Kenny wrote: Squible
So let me get this straight.. Are you are saying when an agnostic says "God's existence cannot be known or is unknowable" it's not something about God? And it's not a belief?
Ken
It is something about God, it’s about his existence. And it is a belief (or point of view) about knowledge.

Ken
So now you are saying it is about God because it is about his existence when before you said it isn't?

So are you saying an agnostic who claims you cannot know if God exists or not doesn't hold a belief about "Gods existence"?

What about an agnostic who holds no belief either way, because they have never heard about God or not worked out from nature that God may exist, and as such don't have a belief about knowledge (Which as I understand your view is they only hold a belief about knowledge)?

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Re: Is there a God?

#360

Post by Kenny » Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:16 pm

Squible
So now it is a belief? I thought theists and atheists just had those in your view...
Ken
That’s why I prefer using the term “point of view” in that particular case.

Squible
Can you explain "For a theist is a belief about believing" please? And after you explain that can you please explain if you hold this to atheists as well?

Ken
To say you believe God exists is different than saying you KNOW God exists. When you say “believe” you aren’t adressing what you know, even though it is usually understood when a theist says this he means he knows God exists. The same applies to the Atheist. Think of it this way: (as the website I sent you yesterday confirmed)
Theist: someone who believes God exist
Atheist: someone who does not believe God exist,
Theist Agnostic: Person who believes God exist but, does not know for certain.
Atheist Agnostic: person who believes God does not exist but does not know for certain
Gnostic Theist: someone who believes and knows God exist
Gnostic Atheist: someone who believes and Knows God does not exist
Agnostic: person who says it is impossible to know either way.
http://www.stanleycolors.com/2013/07/at ... l-you-are/

Squible
And does this mean a theist or atheist isn't making a knowledge claim, when they say God exists or Does not exist respectively?
Ken
The way you phrased it is a knowledge claim thus the person who made the claim is a Gnostic Theist or Gnostic Atheist.

Squible
What about an agnostic who says "I don't believe God exists and I don't believe God does not exist" (and holds no position on whether it is knowable) how is that a belief about knowledge in your view?
Ken
If he holds no position on weather it is knowable, according to Thomas Huxley (the man who coined the term agnostic approx 150 years ago) he is not an agnostic. According to Huxley he has to have the view that knowledge is unknowable.

Squible
So when someone talks about anything to do with Gods existence it isn't about God?
Ken
Not God by himself, but God’s existence.

Squible
So now you are saying it is about God because it is about his existence when before you said it isn't?
Ken
I think you misunderstood me

Squible
So are you saying an agnostic who claims you cannot know if God exists or not doesn't hold a belief about Gods existence?
Ken
I am saying an Agnostic claims you cannot know if God exist, but he doesn’t address belief in God.

Squible
What about an agnostic who holds no belief either way, because they have never heard about God or not worked out from nature that God may exist, and as such don't have a belief about knowledge (In your view)?
Ken
If a person never heard of God, he cannot be an Agnostic.

Ken
Last edited by Kenny on Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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