Is there a God?

[PaulSacramento]

Ok, you do assertions of facts not in evidence, and turn belief on and off. I dont and I dont guess we have much more to say, Sorry I wasted my time.

Well, you know where the door is.

[Squible]

Ok, you do assertions of facts not in evidence, and turn belief on and off. I dont and I dont guess we have much more to say, Sorry I wasted my time.

Well, you know where the door is.

Easy tiger! You're not the only one in the house

[PaulSacramento]

I think that for the born atheist ( for lack of a better word) belief in God is a question of evidence and whether they accept the evidence.
Many simply choose not to.

As long as its clear that is a statement of your opinion, how you see things.

You cannot, of course, see things thro the eyes of a 'born atheist", nor objectively assess evidence / lack of for something to which you are already committed.

For myself, I cannot fathom how someone can "choose" to believe, or disbelieve.

Belief is not something I can turn on and off.

All we have are opinions.
Of course we can turn belief on and off, we do it all the time.
In reality belief is all about choice.
We choose to believe that the evidence presented is enough or not enough, we choose to accept what is presented as evidence or not as evidence.
We do that with pretty much all things.

How do you do this? For me belief happens after logic and reason demands it; not before. But how do you choose what you believe, and to what extent are you able to do this?
Do you think you are capable of believing what your logical mind tells you is impossible? (assuming it has nothing to do with religion)
Do you think you are capable of believing what seems unlikely?
Are you able to believe something because you find it easier or more rewarding to believe it than not to?

To what extent are you honestly able to decide what you believe, or turn your beliefs on or off as you choose?

Ken

Belief is what Ken?

noun
1.
something believed; an opinion or conviction:
a belief that the earth is flat.
2.
confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof:
a statement unworthy of belief.
3.
confidence; faith; trust:
a child's belief in his parents.
4.
a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith:
the Christian belief.

You ask how one is able to "turn off or turn on" a belief as one chooses.

Belief is all about choosing to have confidence in something and that can be via experience, evidence or even blind faith and sometimes a combination of all.
Some people choose to believe in God because personal experience or perhaps rational evidence or perhaps metaphysical arguments and some choose NOT to believe based on the very same things.
Now, people don't simply decide one day to believe in X and the other day to not believe, no of course not and no one said that.
I said people choose to believe and some choose NOT to believe based on the same evidence presented to them.
Some may choose to not believe and then believe base don the very same evidence later one ( Anthony Flew is an example) simply because their understanding of the argument/evidence has changed and so their belief has changed.

Now, emotionally speaking, people can and do turn on their beliefs if an event happens to "warrant" that belief.
Take for example the husband that believes his wife loves him but then finds out she has been cheating on him.
Even if there may not be enough evidence to warrant, emotionally he can "turn off" his belief that his wife loves him because of what he believes she has done.

[PaulSacramento]

Ok, you do assertions of facts not in evidence, and turn belief on and off. I dont and I dont guess we have much more to say, Sorry I wasted my time.

Well, you know where the door is.

Easy tiger! You're not the only one in the house

If you look back at my posts you will not see any tone or attitude BUT for some reason Audie decided to respond with attitude.
Not the brightest thing to do to a moderator to begin with and even more so when there was no reason for her to do so.
Anyone that feels he or she is wasting their time, the know where the door is.
My patience for people that give attitude when there is no reason for it is very, very limited.

We come her and express our views and opinions, if you don't agree you can simply say " I don't agree" and that is fine.
There is no any real reason to be rude or give attitude, that just shows immaturity.

[Kurieuo]

I'd be sad to see Audie go away. As well as Kenny.
They're growing on me.

Due to the major differences in point-of-view we just have to live with the fact we don't get each other.
It is infuriating at times when people don't understand and see what we think is obvious.

BUT, as Christians we see that our war isn't against flesh and blood but what is unseen.
We, and I'm speaking for myself up until recently, often treat those we debate as the enemy.
However, we are told who the true foe is. The Screwtapes blowing smoke.

So it seems important to offer friendship and guidance as much the other is willing.
Atheists are not the enemy but something greater. If they're here that's a good thing.
I've really changed my tune recently on this.

Important to understand I think is that debate divides especially if there's no underlying friendship.
We all want to make the other see our reason, but people do not believe based on reason alone.

I've started trying to talk to those on the other side away from the debate.
It's been both interesting and good. Greater understanding and respect both ways.

Until recently, I'd never actually tried to befriend an Atheist online without debating.
Strange since I've been at it for more than a decade. What an poor Christian I was.
Why not? Why not send a PM to try and understand the person behind the words?
*sigh* quite disappointed in myself that I just tried to make them look foolish and ultimately send them packing.

The difference it makes means they become more tolerable and I think the feeling is mutual.
Because there's an underlying fabric of friendship both sides don't want to ruin.

Anyway, just adding my own thoughts here... take them for what you think they're worth.

[Audie]

Ok, you do assertions of facts not in evidence, and turn belief on and off. I dont and I dont guess we have much more to say, Sorry I wasted my time.

Well, you know where the door is.

Easy tiger! You're not the only one in the house

If you look back at my posts you will not see any tone or attitude BUT for some reason Audie decided to respond with attitude.
Not the brightest thing to do to a moderator to begin with and even more so when there was no reason for her to do so.
Anyone that feels he or she is wasting their time, the know where the door is.
My patience for people that give attitude when there is no reason for it is very, very limited.

We come her and express our views and opinions, if you don't agree you can simply say " I don't agree" and that is fine.
There is no any real reason to be rude or give attitude, that just shows immaturity.

Well yes, it does.

I had no intention to be rude or "give attitude". I dont even know when I supposedly did that.

Attitude goes both ways, sometimes it is presented, sometimes the attitude of the other perceives things that are not there.

I for example said something to K, about a friend from Philippines who after coming to the USA found that so many of her beliefs were not sound. I said it to praise her for her ability to adapt, change her mind based on new information and ways of thinking.

K took my comment as being an attack on his faith. Now THAT was attitude, pure and simple. Not mine, his. To his credit, he looked at it again later, and found something different than what he first thought.

We worked it out; I was talking about things like belief in supernatural spirits of the night, a lizard eating the moon in an eclipse, not about Christianity.

I've had no intent to "show attitude" to anyone here, nor to be rude, tho I have received a good deal of both from people here. Now, Im not immune to playing the drama queen, but I was kind of shocked, and wondered out loud why its like that here.

If you feel I spoke 'with attitude" you could say so, identify what it is. Offering the door isnt it.

Im a bit shocked at your hostility, and your perception of attitude and rudeness. A bit shocked at what seems like the veiled threat in your mention of being a moderator, and the not necessarily polite or attitude free words in your post above.

I'd noticed (what seemed to me as) an attitude toward me earlier, and was avoiding contact with you.
I responded when you asked me something, and this is what I got.

Im open to criticism and re education where I go wrong. Are you?

[B. W.]

What do you truly believe in?[/i]

Ken

What do I believe IN? What does that mean? I could list a million things that I believe are true, But I’ve got a feeling you mean something more than that. When a Theist believes in something; a Christian for example believes IN God, he means more than he believes God exists, he also believes what is said about the Christian God. But what does it mean when you ask what does an atheist believe IN? On 10/27/14 at 8:22pm I responded to Kurieuo and gave him an idea of what I believe, and how I come to these beliefs. If this answers your question; I would be curious what you think of what I posted. If it does not answer your question; please explain further.

Will it last?

Ken

If you read what I posted, you will see what I believe to be true today could very well be a non-belief tomorrow. Judging from my history; the basics are usually the same but the details are constantly changing as I learn and grow.

Ken

So you what believe in does not last...Truth is a big question mark

See the inconstancy?

I have always believed that the truth should ALWAYS be up for question; if there ever comes a time when I have a problem with questions; that would tell me there is something very wrong with what I am calling the truth Thus nothing on my table is guaranteed a permanent residence...

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[B. W.]

...No reason to be accountable to my family, to myself and my society? That is so far from so! I do apparently have different reasons from yours, but they are none the less compelling. Possibly in some way, more so, as I dont have any comfort in a belief that my sins can be washed away. If I did it, Im responsible.

Living a life of depravity just because in the end I can get away with it is so unappealing! Every minute of my life is then something spoilt. That is no life.

I am certainly not the "arbiter of what is right." (Truth is not the topic here)

Have you ever thought why should human beings have a conscience? So Where did your conscience come from Audie?

Would you like your sins washed away and be relieved from the guilt and shame they impose?

Next, you mentioned this:

My cultural background provided me with the moral standards that I should live by.

I do not know your cultural background but can only summarize it maybe of Chinese decent so if that is the case, was Chairman Mao correct in killing 45-70 million folks who did not hold the party line? What of Tiananmen Square? Are these not forms that represent a cultural point of view?

Again, one cannot rely on cultural background for truth as culture twist truth. The one truth that cannot be twisted is that Jesus died and rose from the dead to release you from shame, guilt of your sins, and granting you a new found freedom no cultural can take away.

Audie, you appear to me to be hung up on the word believe. In the Greek and Hebrew text the word translated believe in English is a verb of action meaning in the ancient Greek - to be absolutely persuaded so that one commits one's life too. The ancient Hebrew Pictograph for the word believe/faith paints the illustration of securing yourself to the total care of the house master or master craftsman. Therfore idea of the biblical definition of faith and belief is one of security, not in flippant cultural values, but security, wholeness, real life. Hence, trusting - believing in God is entrusting yourself into the care of one who will make you secure by freeing you from doubts, shame, guilt, pain, past wounds of the heart, the mental shackles that bind us up, free us from abuse, neglect, abandonment, rejection, etc. One who comes to God must believe He is and a rewarder of those who seek him.

The world defines belief/faith, as trusting cultural values, or in programmed genome familial responses to stimuli, or that there is no objective truth, or that all truth is relative, that human conscience just evolved for the sake of breeding, or even in various forms evolutionary Utopianism, etc and etc, in these people are fully persuaded of. Are you not also fully persuaded in some of these same things and therefore, you do have a measure of faith to find God and have him set you free from guilt and shame so you can have a clear conscience.

Where did the old proverb what goes around comes around - come from. It maybe noble gesture to accept your responsibility for your sins but to neglect God's salvation of freeing you of that responsibility is another matter.

This is what Jesus came to do Audie:

Isa 61:1-4, "The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, Because the LORD has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners; 2 To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD And the day of vengeance of our God; To comfort all who mourn, 3 To grant those who mourn in Zion, Giving them a garland instead of ashes, The oil of gladness instead of mourning, The mantle of praise instead of a spirit of fainting. So they will be called oaks of righteousness, The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified. 4 Then they will rebuild the ancient ruins..." NASB

And he will do so for you...
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[neo-x]

That's the problem with talking to athiests, B.W. A lot of them rely on the morals from society argument but the thing is what if you were born in Aztec culture, killed people for sacrifice and slept with a clear conscience? It may not matter to the individual but ultimately we do know there are things wrong or right...though from experience I doubt an atheist would agree with you fully.

[Audie]

...No reason to be accountable to my family, to myself and my society? That is so far from so! I do apparently have different reasons from yours, but they are none the less compelling. Possibly in some way, more so, as I dont have any comfort in a belief that my sins can be washed away. If I did it, Im responsible.

Living a life of depravity just because in the end I can get away with it is so unappealing! Every minute of my life is then something spoilt. That is no life.

I am certainly not the "arbiter of what is right." (Truth is not the topic here)

Have you ever thought why should human beings have a conscience? So Where did your conscience come from Audie?

I have thought about why human beings do have a conscience, and addressed that in a post to Paul, tho he said..
" that argument has been done to death and the reality of that argument is that without God morals are totally subjective, period".

I can express the same ideas to you in different words if you like..?

I dont know what it would mean to think about why people should have a conscience.

Would you like your sins washed away and be relieved from the guilt and shame they impose?

As a child, I thought the Christmas story was so beautiful, it made me cry. There were a couple of songs in English.. one had a line about "stand near to the child so dear, cast aside your fears and be thankful".

Its not about what I like or dont like, itw what I find myself able to believe. Im a sincere person; I do what I can, I dont do what I cant.

My cultural background provided me with the moral standards that I should live by.

I do not know your cultural background but can only summarize it maybe of Chinese decent so if that is the case, was Chairman Mao correct in killing 45-70 million folks who did not hold the party line? What of Tiananmen Square? Are these not forms that represent a cultural point of view?

Again, one cannot rely on cultural background for truth as culture twist truth. The one truth that cannot be twisted is that Jesus died and rose from the dead to release you from shame, guilt of your sins, and granting you a new found freedom no cultural can take away.

Many horrible things are done by people Such events as you describe are certainly not a part of the ethical and moral tradition of my culture.

Audie, you appear to me to be hung up on the word believe. In the Greek and Hebrew text the word translated believe in English is a verb of action meaning in the ancient Greek - to be absolutely persuaded so that one commits one's life too. The ancient Hebrew Pictograph for the word believe/faith paints the illustration of securing yourself to the total care of the house master or master craftsman. Therfore idea of the biblical definition of faith and belief is one of security, not in flippant cultural values, but security, wholeness, real life. Hence, trusting - believing in God is entrusting yourself into the care of one who will make you secure by freeing you from doubts, shame, guilt, pain, past wounds of the heart, the mental shackles that bind us up, free us from abuse, neglect, abandonment, rejection, etc. One who comes to God must believe He is and a rewarder of those who seek him.

We have very different perceptions of the nature of reality.
But you do mention "to be absolutely persuaded". That is so different from "choosing to beleive'.

The world defines belief/faith, as trusting cultural values, or in programmed genome familial responses to stimuli, or that there is no objective truth, or that all truth is relative, that human conscience just evolved for the sake of breeding, or even in various forms evolutionary Utopianism, etc and etc, in these people are fully persuaded of. Are you not also fully persuaded in some of these same things and therefore, you do have a measure of faith to find God and have him set you free from guilt and shame so you can have a clear conscience.

Not totally sure what you are getting at but as for "fully persuaded' can I substitute the term, 100% certain? If so, I am not 100% certain of anything. I think in terms of probabilities, not certainties.

Where did the old proverb what goes around comes around - come from. It maybe noble gesture to accept your responsibility for your sins but to neglect God's salvation of freeing you of that responsibility is another matter.

I suppose every culture has some version of the proverb, its a common observation on the nature of life.

This is what Jesus came to do Audie:

Isa 61:1-4, "The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, Because the LORD has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners; 2 To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD And the day of vengeance of our God; To comfort all who mourn, 3 To grant those who mourn in Zion, Giving them a garland instead of ashes, The oil of gladness instead of mourning, The mantle of praise instead of a spirit of fainting. So they will be called oaks of righteousness, The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified. 4 Then they will rebuild the ancient ruins..." NASB

And he will do so for you...

Thank you for expressing these thoughts. I dont know what else to say. I dont see it, feel it, its not real to me. Maybe it is real. I dont do certainties. Where do I go from there?-

[/quote]

[PaulSacramento]

That's the problem with talking to athiests, B.W. A lot of them rely on the morals from society argument but the thing is what if you were born in Aztec culture, killed people for sacrifice and slept with a clear conscience? It may not matter to the individual but ultimately we do know there are things wrong or right...though from experience I doubt an atheist would agree with you fully.

To the atheist, even if He/she doesn't admit it, morals MUST be subjective because they are solely based on what is acceptable for society at the time.
If morals are objective then there must be an absolute moral guide that is NOT society or the norm at the time and if so, what/who is it?

The thing is that even in the most permissible of cultures, there are still things that are simply NOT acceptable, things still viewed as "not good".

Even in a culture in which promiscuity is the norm, rape is not acceptable.
Even in a culture where rape of an outsider is the ok, it is not acceptable within that society.
Even in a culture where infanticide of "imperfect babies" is acceptable, infanticide without reason is not.
and so forth...

The issue is that every culture has has a pint where they say, "whoa, that's just not right".

Atheists try to justify that in a variety of ways, Sam Harris tired ( and failed IMO and in the opinion of many others far more learned than I) but the reality is that it can't be explained just by saying it is "social conditioning" or some evolutionary trait that was kept on because it is somehow deemed valuable.

[Kenny]

I think that for the born atheist ( for lack of a better word) belief in God is a question of evidence and whether they accept the evidence.
Many simply choose not to.

As long as its clear that is a statement of your opinion, how you see things.

You cannot, of course, see things thro the eyes of a 'born atheist", nor objectively assess evidence / lack of for something to which you are already committed.

For myself, I cannot fathom how someone can "choose" to believe, or disbelieve.

Belief is not something I can turn on and off.

All we have are opinions.
Of course we can turn belief on and off, we do it all the time.
In reality belief is all about choice.
We choose to believe that the evidence presented is enough or not enough, we choose to accept what is presented as evidence or not as evidence.
We do that with pretty much all things.

How do you do this? For me belief happens after logic and reason demands it; not before. But how do you choose what you believe, and to what extent are you able to do this?
Do you think you are capable of believing what your logical mind tells you is impossible? (assuming it has nothing to do with religion)
Do you think you are capable of believing what seems unlikely?
Are you able to believe something because you find it easier or more rewarding to believe it than not to?

To what extent are you honestly able to decide what you believe, or turn your beliefs on or off as you choose?

Ken

Belief is what Ken?

noun
1.
something believed; an opinion or conviction:
a belief that the earth is flat.
2.
confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof:
a statement unworthy of belief.
3.
confidence; faith; trust:
a child's belief in his parents.
4.
a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith:
the Christian belief.

You ask how one is able to "turn off or turn on" a belief as one chooses.

Belief is all about choosing to have confidence in something and that can be via experience, evidence or even blind faith and sometimes a combination of all.
Some people choose to believe in God because personal experience or perhaps rational evidence or perhaps metaphysical arguments and some choose NOT to believe based on the very same things.
Now, people don't simply decide one day to believe in X and the other day to not believe, no of course not and no one said that.
I said people choose to believe and some choose NOT to believe based on the same evidence presented to them.
Some may choose to not believe and then believe base don the very same evidence later one ( Anthony Flew is an example) simply because their understanding of the argument/evidence has changed and so their belief has changed.

Now, emotionally speaking, people can and do turn on their beliefs if an event happens to "warrant" that belief.
Take for example the husband that believes his wife loves him but then finds out she has been cheating on him.
Even if there may not be enough evidence to warrant, emotionally he can "turn off" his belief that his wife loves him because of what he believes she has done.

PaulSacramento
You ask how one is able to "turn off or turn on" a belief as one chooses
Belief is all about choosing to have confidence in something and that can be via experience, evidence or even blind faith and sometimes a combination of all.
Some people choose to believe in God because personal experience or perhaps rational evidence or perhaps metaphysical arguments and some choose NOT to believe based on the very same things.
Now, people don't simply decide one day to believe in X and the other day to not believe, no of course not and no one said that.
I said people choose to believe and some choose NOT to believe based on the same evidence presented to them.

Ken
Isn’t that an example of logic and reason demanding belief? What may be logical and reasonable to one may not be for another.

PaulSacramento
Some may choose to not believe and then believe base don the very same evidence later one ( Anthony Flew is an example) simply because their understanding of the argument/evidence has changed and so their belief has changed.

Ken
That sounds like changing your mind based upon new information, or based on a change in how you view information; not simply choosing to believe or choosing not to believe.

PaulSacramento
Now, emotionally speaking, people can and do turn on their beliefs if an event happens to "warrant" that belief.
Take for example the husband that believes his wife loves him but then finds out she has been cheating on him.
Even if there may not be enough evidence to warrant, emotionally he can "turn off" his belief that his wife loves him because of what he believes she has done.
Ken
Again this sounds like changing your mind based upon new information weather the information has merit or not. IMO an example of choosing to turn off his belief would be for him to do it even though he doesn’t feel she has done anything wrong.

Ken

[Kenny]

What do you truly believe in?[/i]

Ken

What do I believe IN? What does that mean? I could list a million things that I believe are true, But I’ve got a feeling you mean something more than that. When a Theist believes in something; a Christian for example believes IN God, he means more than he believes God exists, he also believes what is said about the Christian God. But what does it mean when you ask what does an atheist believe IN? On 10/27/14 at 8:22pm I responded to Kurieuo and gave him an idea of what I believe, and how I come to these beliefs. If this answers your question; I would be curious what you think of what I posted. If it does not answer your question; please explain further.

Will it last?

Ken

If you read what I posted, you will see what I believe to be true today could very well be a non-belief tomorrow. Judging from my history; the basics are usually the same but the details are constantly changing as I learn and grow.

Ken

So you what believe in does not last...Truth is a big question mark

See the inconstancy?

I have always believed that the truth should ALWAYS be up for question; if there ever comes a time when I have a problem with questions; that would tell me there is something very wrong with what I am calling the truth Thus nothing on my table is guaranteed a permanent residence...

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I do not see an inconstancy; you haven't defined what you mean by "believe in". Is it the basics that usually remain the same? or the details that are subject to change? I can tell you a million and one things I believe to be true, but to believe IN something is different. What do you mean by this? Can you give an example of something you believe IN other than God?

Ken

[Kenny]

Of course Kenny.

Theist-someone who believes God exists.
Atheist-someone who believes God doesn't exist.

Newborn babies can't be either.

I guess various people describe the term in various ways. Of course using that definition; a lot of people who are called "Atheist" (myself included) are not. Just because a person is a Theist doesn't mean they worship the God of Abraham; in theory a person could worship anything they choose. I believe in the Bible there were people worshiping a golden calf which is just a big chunk of metal! I would find it foolish for a person to claim something doesn't exist without an explanation of what it is they are claiming the non-existence of. I doubt very many people called atheist would actually fit into that category.

Ken

Sure. For the sake of discussion here, we are talking about theism regarding God. Not God and gods, because it's a Christian forum.

I was under the impression we were talking about theism regarding any God; otherwise we would have to label the Hindu, the Zoroastrianist, and all other theists who worship different God's Atheists as well. Is that what you were talking about when you say Atheist?

Ken

[Kenny]

Agnosticism is the default position, for it is not an epistemological position whereas theism and atheism are.

Agnosticism - No knowledge / I don't know / It's unknowable
Theism - Belief that God or gods exists
Atheism - (A = not) therefore not theism - Belief that God or gods do not exist

For example I am not afleaist about there being a flea in our house. I am agnostic about whether a flea is somewhere in my house, actually prior to this comment I was too because I hadn't thought about it and held no position either way. Then again the dogs were just let inside so now I have good reasons to become fleaist, since it is likely they do have at least one flea between them.

This whole default position rubbish and the definition of atheism being distorted across the internet gets weary at times...

Atheism and Theism is about what you believe, Agnosticism is about what you know; a totally different conversation. In theory, you can believe God does or does not exist; but not know.

Ken