Faith... concept!

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
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1over137
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Re: Faith... concept!

#16

Post by 1over137 » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:50 pm

Kenny wrote:What did I miss?
Before you wrote this:
Kenny wrote: Hebrews 11:1 says "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen.
Not seen means blind. If it weren't blind, the term "unseen" would not have been used. To say faith simply means "hope" doesn't fairly discribe the word because just because we hope for something doesn't mean we believe it is going to happen. I have hope for world peace, even though I doubt the likelihood of it ever happening. Besides; we already have a word for wishing something happens weather or not we believe it will..... Hope. Why make up another term if it is gonna mean the same thing?
From Hebrews 11
"11 Now faith is the [a]assurance of things hoped for, the [c]conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the men of old [d]gained approval.
3 By faith we understand that the [e]worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. 4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying [f]about his gifts, and through [g]faith, though he is dead, he still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, [h]in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith."

My question to you is: do you think Noah did not believe flood would happen?
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

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Re: Faith... concept!

#17

Post by Kenny » Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:14 pm

1over137 wrote:
Kenny wrote:What did I miss?
Before you wrote this:
Kenny wrote: Hebrews 11:1 says "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen.
Not seen means blind. If it weren't blind, the term "unseen" would not have been used. To say faith simply means "hope" doesn't fairly discribe the word because just because we hope for something doesn't mean we believe it is going to happen. I have hope for world peace, even though I doubt the likelihood of it ever happening. Besides; we already have a word for wishing something happens weather or not we believe it will..... Hope. Why make up another term if it is gonna mean the same thing?
From Hebrews 11
"11 Now faith is the [a]assurance of things hoped for, the [c]conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the men of old [d]gained approval.
3 By faith we understand that the [e]worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. 4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying [f]about his gifts, and through [g]faith, though he is dead, he still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, [h]in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith."

My question to you is: do you think Noah did not believe flood would happen?

According to the Bible, Noah did believe the flood would happen.

Ken
RickD wrote
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Re: Faith... concept!

#18

Post by 1over137 » Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:44 pm

Sorry, my last question was not that wise.
I should have asked this: in your opinion, do you think noah believed flood would happen or he had faith it would happen?
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

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Re: Faith... concept!

#19

Post by Kenny » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:22 am

1over137 wrote:Sorry, my last question was not that wise.
I should have asked this: in your opinion, do you think noah believed flood would happen or he had faith it would happen?
I believe according to the Bible, Noah had both. He had the type of belief that could be discribed as faith; because something like that never happened before, thus it was "unseen".

Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Faith... concept!

#20

Post by 1over137 » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:29 am

Kenny wrote:
1over137 wrote:Sorry, my last question was not that wise.
I should have asked this: in your opinion, do you think noah believed flood would happen or he had faith it would happen?
I believe according to the Bible, Noah had both. He had the type of belief that could be discribed as faith; because something like that never happened before, thus it was "unseen".

Ken
Thanks for the answer. Now another: What do you think, was Noah's faith blind? (Also, do you know what the expression 'blind faith' means?)

I try to understand what you meant when you wrote this (esp, the underlined part):
Kenny wrote:I believe many people use the term “faith” out of context. I see a lot of people using the term faith as just another word for believing; which makes the term usless. I believe faith is a specific type of believing. The bible says “faith is the study of things hoped for evidence of things unseen” Most of what we believe is because we see evidence of it; but with faith it has to be blind, it has to be unseen as the bible puts it.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

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Re: Faith... concept!

#21

Post by Kenny » Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:31 pm

1over137 wrote:
Kenny wrote:
1over137 wrote:Sorry, my last question was not that wise.
I should have asked this: in your opinion, do you think noah believed flood would happen or he had faith it would happen?
I believe according to the Bible, Noah had both. He had the type of belief that could be discribed as faith; because something like that never happened before, thus it was "unseen".

Ken
Thanks for the answer. Now another: What do you think, was Noah's faith blind? (Also, do you know what the expression 'blind faith' means?)

I try to understand what you meant when you wrote this (esp, the underlined part):
Kenny wrote:I believe many people use the term “faith” out of context. I see a lot of people using the term faith as just another word for believing; which makes the term usless. I believe faith is a specific type of believing. The bible says “faith is the study of things hoped for evidence of things unseen” Most of what we believe is because we see evidence of it; but with faith it has to be blind, it has to be unseen as the bible puts it.
Yes I do believe Noah's faith was blind because nothing like that had never happened before. I believe the expression "blind faith" means it is not based upon reason, logic, or empirical evidence.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Faith... concept!

#22

Post by 1over137 » Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:31 am

Kenny wrote:Yes I do believe Noah's faith was blind because nothing like that had never happened before. I believe the expression "blind faith" means it is not based upon reason, logic, or empirical evidence.
Well, Genesis 6:13
13 Then God said to Noah, “The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence because of them; and behold, I am about to destroy them with the earth.

Isn't being said something by God to him good enough reason to have faith?
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

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Re: Faith... concept!

#23

Post by Kenny » Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:58 pm

1over137 wrote:
Kenny wrote:Yes I do believe Noah's faith was blind because nothing like that had never happened before. I believe the expression "blind faith" means it is not based upon reason, logic, or empirical evidence.
Well, Genesis 6:13
13 Then God said to Noah, “The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence because of them; and behold, I am about to destroy them with the earth.

Isn't being said something by God to him good enough reason to have faith?
If God spoke to him, as a voice comming from the clouds, that wouldn't be faith, that would be proof

K
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Faith... concept!

#24

Post by 1over137 » Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:15 pm

But Bible says this:
Hebrews 11:7
7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, [h]in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith."

So?
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

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Re: Faith... concept!

#25

Post by Kenny » Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:36 pm

1over137 wrote:But Bible says this:
Hebrews 11:7
7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, [h]in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith."

So?
If God provided proof that it was him speaking to Noah instead of a his imagination, I woiuld say it was proof. If proof was not provided, then it was probably faith

Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Faith... concept!

#26

Post by Seraph » Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:51 pm

There would still have been an element of faith involved that God would sustain the ark and not kill Noah and his family in the flood though, no? :P

Faith isn't just believe in something without evidence, it is also synonymous with trust.
I am committed to belief in God, as the most morally demanding, psychologically enriching, intellectually satisfying and imaginatively fruitful hypothesis about the ultimate nature of reality known to me - Keith Ward

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Re: Faith... concept!

#27

Post by Kenny » Wed Mar 26, 2014 5:01 pm

Seraph wrote:There would still have been an element of faith involved that God would sustain the ark and not kill Noah and his family in the flood though, no? :P

Faith isn't just believe in something without evidence, it is also synonymous with trust.
I guess different people use the term different ways; I've always thought of it as to believe and trust without empirical evidence

Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Faith... concept!

#28

Post by Jac3510 » Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:17 pm

Kenny wrote:
Seraph wrote:There would still have been an element of faith involved that God would sustain the ark and not kill Noah and his family in the flood though, no? :P

Faith isn't just believe in something without evidence, it is also synonymous with trust.
I guess different people use the term different ways; I've always thought of it as to believe and trust without empirical evidence

Ken
And you've been informed that is not what the word means. The Greek word is pistis. The Hebrew is aman. Neither pistis nor aman mean "faith without empirical evidence." They both mean, as you have been told, "trust" (both have close connections to the idea of reliability and durability). That's the point 1/137 is making. However you are using the word, you are using it in a way that the biblical writers did not.

You might find this helpful:

http://cmmorrison.wordpress.com/2010/08/10/faith/
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Faith... concept!

#29

Post by 1over137 » Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:09 pm

I was aiming to show you Kenny, that you took the verse Hebrews 11:1 out of context.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

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Re: Faith... concept!

#30

Post by B. W. » Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:12 am

Jac3510 wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Seraph wrote:There would still have been an element of faith involved that God would sustain the ark and not kill Noah and his family in the flood though, no? :P

Faith isn't just believe in something without evidence, it is also synonymous with trust.
I guess different people use the term different ways; I've always thought of it as to believe and trust without empirical evidence

Ken
And you've been informed that is not what the word means. The Greek word is pistis. The Hebrew is aman. Neither pistis nor aman mean "faith without empirical evidence." They both mean, as you have been told, "trust" (both have close connections to the idea of reliability and durability). That's the point 1/137 is making. However you are using the word, you are using it in a way that the biblical writers did not.

You might find this helpful:

http://cmmorrison.wordpress.com/2010/08/10/faith/
Jac's article brings out the meaning of faith in both Hebrew and Greek meaning to place your trust in something or to rely upon it..

I would add to this to Faith believe means to place your trust in someone or something too rely upon the object of your faith.

We rely upon what Jesus did on the cross. We trust his word to believe in Him...

There are nuances to the word as well and with the Hebrew root pictograph which are individual letters in picture form of a Ox Head (EL/Al), water (Mah), and a sprouting seed (NaN). What does that all mean? Well, it depends on how the word is used in the context it is used in. So lets use the context aman (believe) as it relates to believing God... and each letter in the ancient Hebrew root has a meaning:

Ancient Hebrew letter Picture - ox-head - Letter AL/EL - and it means = strong, strength, might, power, stamina, leader, ruler... The ox head was the first letter for Elohim and EL (God)

Ancient Hebrew letter Picture depicts - water - and its meaning means chaos, mighty, blood, water - torrent of liquid that continues - or the blood line continues

Ancient Hebrew Picture letter is of a - sprouting seed - and the letter name is NaN with the letter mean to continue, heir, son, to establish and make firm a blood line, heir, offspring - the idea is hard for us to grasp but it is make firm and secure a heritage for those coming after you.

Please note I am leaving the Hebrew vowels out...Think of modern day texting - you leave the vowels out - the ancient text left out vowels too...

So what you have in the pictograph for Aman (Believe) is making God your strength and total trust, thru blood that continuously, establishes one secure and firm in a family line - a heritage - inheritance...

So in the ancient Hebrew pictograph of the word Believe as it is used in context with God, the nuance of aman (believe/faith) paints the picture of redemption thru the blood of Christ Jesus, that makes you secure and firm in God's house (by adoption) receiving an inheritance incorruptible, secure, and sure by committing / entrusting yourself totally in God's strength and abilities...

That's faith and did not Paul write of these very expressions say for instance in Ephesians 1:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11 ?

When Abram believed God in Gen 15:6 did not the context revolve around establishing a blood line in which the Messiah would come to reconcile people back to God - secured forever in him?

3/27 - EDIT: Abram relied totally on God to achieve the promise God made while looking at the stars in heaven - that is the concept of faith being expressed and that made Abram righteous in God's sight. The concept of faith/believing revolves around on relying, trusting totally in God's work - word promise alone - His total care - and not on one's own work to achieve God's promise/word. Abram did have a sin nature that needed dealt with that would cause him to Miss that Mark, and God handled that, through living processes, kept His promise and refined Abraham's character to live according to that total trust, dependence, reliance, fidelity on God alone. The importance of this was lain upon the alter, Isaac, and God staying the knife with a ram in a thicket and calling out to him - the promise...

Yes, we miss learning things like that in Sunday school about faith - believing form the Hebrew word amam... don't we...

The entrance involves entrusting yourself totally in God's strength and abilities by His grace... The idea is that you can trust God and that trust places yourself into his complete and total care - the Care of the Heavenly Father, security of the Son, and life transforming power of the Holy Spirit to learn His ways...etc...

Mix this with the Greek word for faith and believe and you have loyalty, commitment, trust, fidelity added in. In other words, entrusting yourself to the loyalty, commitment, trust, fidelity of sovereign God alone. In other words, as Paul said in Galatians 2:20, "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me." NKJV

The other contexts in which the Hebrew word for faith and believe are used - denote made secure, firm, established - placing yourself under the care of a master craftsman to be trained, and equipped to carry on the craftsman's trade

Since one letter of 'aman' (NaN) is a picture of a seed - now read Mark 11:1-33 again and whatever else Jesus mentioned faith as a seed...

Interesting things aren't they that make connections within the bible that shows a divine authorship even in the ancient Hebrew letters and pictograph forms of certain words...

And the pictograph for YHWH means - Hand Behold/reveals Nail Look -interesting isn't it? - Note John 20:26-29 -

Also, next, within the One Name for God - YHWH - Father Son, and Holy Spirit is revealed....

Letter Yud - picture of An Arm and Hand - Meaning - Work, Throw, Worship, Hand, Arm
Letter Hey - picture of a Man with Arms Raised - meaning -Look, Behold, Reveal, Breathe
Letter Vav - picture of a Tent Peg or Nail - meaning - Add, Secure, Hook, Peg, Nail
Letter Hey -picture of a Man with Arms Raised - meaning -Look, Behold, Reveal, Breathe, Breath

Work of Hand reveals the nail Behold - John 6:44 - the Father (Acts 4:27-28)

Hand Behold/reveals Nail Look - John 20:26-29 - The Son

Throwing Hand Look (by) nail breath revealed - The Holy Spirit - Job 33:4; Psalms 33:6 - John 14:16, John 15:26, John 16:7, John 20:22, Acts 2:2

Note a throwing hand denotes power and the Holy Spirit role is of empowerment for service and a mighty rushing wind (breath) and tongues of fire fell on those in the Upper room....

They don't teach this in Sunday school do they?

Maybe you should?
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