The Foolishness of Many Non-believers

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
Thadeyus
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Re: The Foolishness of Many Non-believers

#151

Post by Thadeyus » Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:29 pm

Kurieuo wrote:I simply believe you are mistaken in your knowledge on the issues.

Perhaps this link -- http://www.secularprolife.org/#!abortion/cimp -- will help you gather your thoughts.

It won't do to simply reject what I present with your opinion.

Want to discuss further, then happy to discuss your disagreements in a new thread rather than have this one derailed again.
Okay..read the paper article and..frankly...was not impressed.

Sure, if you're happy with a new thread, no worries.

Much cheers to all.

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Re: The Foolishness of Many Non-believers

#152

Post by Rubberneck » Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:05 am

If you break an egg open to make an omelet, and you find a little red spec in the egg, meaning the egg was fertilized, do you change the menu to chicken?

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Kurieuo
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Re: The Foolishness of Many Non-believers

#153

Post by Kurieuo » Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:49 pm

Rubberneck wrote:If you break an egg open to make an omelet, and you find a little red spec in the egg, meaning the egg was fertilized, do you change the menu to chicken?
The issue raised was "all human life".

And I'm sorry if the science of the matter offends some (perhaps you guys have coerced an abortion in a girlfriend or something?), but human life actually begins at conception.

Whether or not "human life" is in and of itself is important, is completely another question. Is a human life that is "just a speck", or in "really, really early stages of human development" important enough to remove all value? You have to start defining some humans as worthless, rather than all human life as valuable.

But the one thing you don't get to say, biologically or scientifically, is that something like a fish has been conceived until birth when the baby magically becomes human. Shed all your opinion in the world, this doesn't change when an abortion happens that it kills a human life.

Moderators, If you don't mind, I'd appreciate if some of these "human life" / "abortion" discussion posts were moved/copied into another thread. Entitled "Unborn Human Life" or some such.

SS, I've responded back to you re: your own responses to my earlier questions which is effectively being buried once again.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: The Foolishness of Many Non-believers

#154

Post by Thadeyus » Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:29 pm

Kurieuo wrote: ...(perhaps you guys have coerced an abortion in a girlfriend or something?)...
Um..where did this comment come from?
Kurieuo wrote:...But human life actually begins at conception...
And...as is being pointed out before...while the cells are indeed multiplying etc...and alive...what is and is not human is being talked about. (As in the difference between a blastocyte and ca cancer cell)
Kurieuo wrote:Whether or not "human life" is in and of itself is important, is completely another question. Is a human life that is "just a speck", or in "really, really early stages of human development" important enough to remove all value? You have to start defining some humans as worthless, rather than all human life as valuable.


Um...no, you don't really have to do such a thing. See...here I believe you're defining things how you wish them to be.
Kurieuo wrote:But the one thing you don't get to say, biologically or scientifically, is that something like a fish has been conceived until birth when the baby magically becomes human. Shed all your opinion in the world, this doesn't change when an abortion happens that it kills a human life.
It stops the potential for human life. Is how I shall be referring my definitions to.

Much cheers to all.

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Kurieuo
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Re: The Foolishness of Many Non-believers

#155

Post by Kurieuo » Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:52 pm

Thad, stop sleeping and wake up eh?

It seems you're defining "human life" for how you prefer the case to be devoid of physical reality.

You back your opinion up only with your opinion. And you are deeply misinformed about and misunderstand what is/is not "human life".
Faye Wattleton, “Speaking Frankly,” Ms. Magazine, May / June 1997, Volume VII, Number 6, 67. wrote:I think we have deluded ourselves into believing that people don't know that abortion is killing. So any pretense that abortion is not killing is a signal of our ambivalence, a signal that we cannot say yes, it kills a fetus.
Ann Furedi, “Abortion: A Civilised Debate,” Battle of Ideas, (London, England, November 1, 2008). wrote:We can accept that the embryo is a living thing in the fact that it has a beating heart, that it has its own genetic system within it. It’s clearly human in the sense that it’s not a gerbil, and we can recognize that it is human lifethe point is not when does human life begin, but when does it really begin to matter?
Naomi Wolf, “Our Bodies, Our Souls,” The New Republic, October 16, 1995, 26. wrote:Clinging to a rhetoric about abortion in which there is no life and no death, we entangle our beliefs in a series of self-delusions, fibs and evasions. And we risk becoming precisely what our critics charge us with being: callous, selfish and casually destructive men and women who share a cheapened view of human life...we need to contextualize the fight to defend abortion rights within a moral framework that admits that the death of a fetus is a real death.
David Boonin, A Defense of Abortion (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2003), xiv. wrote:In the top drawer of my desk, I keep [a picture of my son]. This picture was taken on September 7, 1993, 24 weeks before he was born. The sonogram image is murky, but it reveals clear enough a small head tilted back slightly, and an arm raised up and bent, with the hand pointing back toward the face and the thumb extended out toward the mouth. There is no doubt in my mind that this picture, too, shows [my son] at a very early stage in his physical development. And there is no question that the position I defend in this book entails that it would have been morally permissible to end his life at this point.
Peter Singer, Practical Ethics, 2nd ed. (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1993, 2008), 85-86. wrote:It is possible to give ‘human being’ a precise meaning. We can use it as equivalent to ‘member of the species Homo sapiens’. Whether a being is a member of a given species is something that can be determined scientifically, by an examination of the nature of the chromosomes in the cells of living organisms. In this sense there is no doubt that from the first moments of its existence an embryo conceived from human sperm and eggs is a human being.
Bernard N. Nathanson, M.D., “Deeper into Abortion,” New England Journal of Medicine, November 28, 1974, Vol. 291, No. 22: 1189-1190. wrote:There is simply no doubt that even the early embryo is a human being. All its genetic coding and all its features are indisputably human. As to being, there is no doubt that it exists, is alive, is self-directed, and is not the the same being as the mother–and is therefore a unified whole.
Pull your head out of the sand Thad. You don't know what you're talking about.

And these people above, as you might have realised, are not only more educated on the issue than you, but they know they're supporting the termination of human life.

The question is not whether we're talking about "human life" as you might think, but rather as Ann Furedi notes: "the point is not when does human life begin, but when does it really begin to matter?"

Seriously, it just amazes me how people comment without really knowing what they're talking about sometimes! Utter foolish talk. And if you're offended by that grow some skin and learn. Pfft. y=;

So now, back to SS.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: The Foolishness of Many Non-believers

#156

Post by Thadeyus » Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:04 pm

Kurieuo wrote:Pull your head out of the sand Thad. You don't know what you're talking about.
I am quite happy to acknowledge that I do not know what I am talking about....
Kurieuo wrote:And these people above, as you might have realized, are not only more educated on the issue than you, but they know they're supporting the termination of human life.
I should hope there are a great many people with far more knowledge about many things than myself.
Kurieuo wrote:The question is not whether we're talking about "human life" as you might think, but rather as Ann Furedi notes: "the point is not when does human life begin, but when does it really begin to matter?"
And a valid point that is.
Kurieuo wrote:Seriously, it just amazes me how people comment without really knowing what they're talking about sometimes!
While I freely admit that my education is no where near that of the luminaries whom you've provided link to...That my opinion does not matter? *Shrug* Okay...so does that allow me to then say that your opinions on the matter also do not matter?
Kurieuo wrote:Utter foolish talk. And if you're offended by that grow some skin and learn.
I am not the one who's been throwing assertions left, right and center....

Just simply asking questions and putting forward ideas/comment.

Much cheers to all.

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Re: The Foolishness of Many Non-believers

#157

Post by Kurieuo » Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:28 pm

If you're able to build a case for your previous opinion that human life happens at some time other than conception, then build it.

Use reason. Cite respectable authorities. I'm interested in reality, not opinion. I've backed up all my assertions, whether left, right or center.

But you also deserve credit when it's due. You took my criticism on the chin and I applaud that. I also notice that some movement happened with you accepting Ann Furedi's "valid point". So now, if you grant this is a valid point, then perhaps it just needs to be clarified what human life matters if not all.

For example, are lower socio-economic groups less important than higher? Black human life less important than white? If we look at the statistics on abortion in the US, and those Planned Parenthood seem to target with the locations of their clinics, then one starts to notice something quite revealing.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDJMutDssXA[/youtube]
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Re: The Foolishness of Many Non-believers

#158

Post by Thadeyus » Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:49 am

To Kurieuo

"You took my criticism on the chin..."

Yes...well..attacking the man instead of playing the ball is one way to have a go at a conversation I suppose.

As for "Cite respectable authorities..." ? Picking and choosing various quotes doesn't really do any thing when I never seem to get a response to my questions/points.

Human life =/= Human cells.

Is what I have been saying. Also

Potential =/= Actual.

NOw, as for your 'Black Vs White' issue? My country has had its own problems dealing with such cultural issues. Happily we've also come a long way and made some very good decisions lately. Sadly, I don't have time atm to review your youtube link.

Much cheers to all.

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Re: The Foolishness of Many Non-believers

#159

Post by Kurieuo » Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:48 pm

Thadeyus wrote:To Kurieuo

"You took my criticism on the chin..."

Yes...well..attacking the man instead of playing the ball is one way to have a go at a conversation I suppose.
Whatever Thad. I just see the ad hominems going one way. Keep it up. :roll:
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Re: The Foolishness of Many Non-believers

#160

Post by Thadeyus » Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:35 pm

Kurieuo wrote:Whatever Thad. I just see the ad hominems going one way. Keep it up. :roll:
?

Nope, lost me with that one.

Now..about the questions from my side?

Much cheers to all.

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Kurieuo
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Re: The Foolishness of Many Non-believers

#161

Post by Kurieuo » Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:40 pm

Thadeyus wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:Whatever Thad. I just see the ad hominems going one way. Keep it up. :roll:
?

Nope, lost me with that one.

Now..about the questions from my side?
Err, what question? Does anyone else not see a valid unanswered question?

I'm breaking off conversation with you now Thad. It's become obvious you just have a peeve with me.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: The Foolishness of Many Non-believers

#162

Post by Thadeyus » Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:54 pm

Kurieuo wrote:Err, what question? Does anyone else not see a valid unanswered question?
That "Human life =/= Human cells. " ?
Kurieuo wrote:I'm breaking off conversation with you now Thad. It's become obvious you just have a peeve with me.
No worries, all the best.

So...does this mean I win something? ;)

Much cheers to all.

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Kurieuo
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Re: The Foolishness of Many Non-believers

#163

Post by Kurieuo » Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:01 pm

Thadeyus wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:Err, what question? Does anyone else not see a valid unanswered question?
That "Human life =/= Human cells. " ?
Kurieuo wrote:I'm breaking off conversation with you now Thad. It's become obvious you just have a peeve with me.
No worries, all the best.

So...does this mean I win something? ;)

Much cheers to all.
That's already been dealt with previously.

And yes, I'll let you win if that's what you want.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Kurieuo
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Re: The Foolishness of Many Non-believers

#164

Post by Kurieuo » Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:52 pm

I stumbled across an amazing quote:
“Is birth control abortion? Definitely not. An abortion kills the life of a baby after it has begun. It is dangerous to your life and health. It may make you sterile so that when you want a child you cannot have it. Birth control merely post-pones the beginning of life.” (Is Birth Control Abortion, Planned Parenthood pamphlet, Aug. 1963, p.1)
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Furstentum Liechtenstein
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Re: The Foolishness of Many Non-believers

#165

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:07 pm

Kurieuo wrote:I stumbled across an amazing quote:
“Is birth control abortion? Definitely not. An abortion kills the life of a baby after it has begun. It is dangerous to your life and health. It may make you sterile so that when you want a child you cannot have it. Birth control merely post-pones the beginning of life.” (Is Birth Control Abortion, Planned Parenthood pamphlet, Aug. 1963, p.1)
I'm sure the above has been re-worded since it was originally written. We can't tell people the plain truth; they might be offended.

www.lifesitenews.com

FL :nooo:
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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