Islam ?

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
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Furstentum Liechtenstein
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Re: Islam ?

#46

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:00 pm

Amusing:

An Argentinian artist is selling Barbie & Ken dolls made up to look like the Virgin Mary and Jesus crucified. Apparently, the Vatican is not happy but most Christians couldn't care less.

What do you think would have happenned had the artist made Barbie into Aisha* and Ken into Muhammad?

Bloody riots, anyone?

FL y:-?

*Aisha was one of ''The Prophet's'' wives.
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

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Re: Islam ?

#47

Post by Philip » Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:58 pm

Amusing:

An Argentinian artist is selling Barbie & Ken dolls made up to look like the Virgin Mary and Jesus crucified. Apparently, the Vatican is not happy but most Christians couldn't care less.

What do you think would have happenned had the artist made Barbie into Aisha* and Ken into Muhammad?

Bloody riots, anyone?

FL y:-?

*Aisha was one of ''The Prophet's'' wives.
Ken still wouldn't be THAT into her (any man who dresses like Ken, well, let's just say he dresses just a little too prissy!). y:-?

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Re: Islam ?

#48

Post by ryanbouma » Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:03 pm

NEW QUESTION :esmile: :oops:

Ok, I listened to some videos by Nabeel. Very interesting. In them he mentioned something like 10,000 people convert to Islam in the US per year. That struck me as very high. So I googled around to read about these people who have written their testimonies.

Previously in this thread, we've discussed that many Muslims don't actually read their Quran or take their religion very seriously, thus they're duped into their beliefs out of convenience or upbringing or what ever. However, these conversions are very odd to me. These people actually claim to seek God, in the same way we rejoice over people coming to Christ, and eventually come to believe in Islam. Some even come from a Christian background. We can't really say these people are just lazy Muslims who don't know how corrupt their text is. We can't really say these people are guilted into it because of their parents. We can't really say they haven't had some kind of emotional experience they attribute to God, because these same kinds of experiences happen to new Christians and we praise God for that, so it would be a double standard to dismiss their experiences.

What then can we make of these seekers who find Islam more compelling? Never before have I been so disgusted of Islam, and yet I'm reading about people who actually latch onto it and give their lives over to it after "seeking sincerely"...

PS. Many of them seem to appreciate the structured prayer and fasting among other requirements. Almost like Christianity is to easy so it can't be right.

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Re: Islam ?

#49

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:17 pm

ryanbouma wrote:Previously in this thread, we've discussed that many Muslims don't actually read their Quran or take their religion very seriously, thus they're duped into their beliefs out of convenience or upbringing or what ever. However, these conversions are very odd to me. These people actually claim to seek God, in the same way we rejoice over people coming to Christ, and eventually come to believe in Islam. Some even come from a Christian background. We can't really say these people are just lazy Muslims who don't know how corrupt their text is. We can't really say these people are guilted into it because of their parents. We can't really say they haven't had some kind of emotional experience they attribute to God, because these same kinds of experiences happen to new Christians and we praise God for that, so it would be a double standard to dismiss their experiences.
There seems to be , implicit in your paragraph above, the belief that a convert to Islam is just like the born again experience of the Christian. Nothing could be further from the truth. I think the problem comes from the following belief of yours:
ryanbouma wrote:PS. Many [converts to Islam] seem to appreciate the structured prayer and fasting among other requirements. Almost like Christianity is too easy so it can't be right.
Christianity isn't easy. It never was and never will be. This is why Jesus said that many are on the broad road that leads to destruction but few - few! - find the narrow road that leads to Life. As a former atheist, I can assure you that the last thing I wanted to become was a Christian: giving up Lordship of my life to God was not something easy to do.

Muslims, nominal Christians, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, any religion or proto-religion* provides a comforting framework to honor some man-made god, and to placate that god with good deeds, martyrdom, candles, money or whatever. These, rather, are the easy beliefs to have because the faithful remains in control of his righteousness. Perhaps I should restate my last sentence: These, rather, are the easy beliefs to have because the faithful remains in control of His righteousness. Yes...that's better.

FL :D

*I'm thinking of Environmentalism here.
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

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ryanbouma
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Re: Islam ?

#50

Post by ryanbouma » Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:16 pm

Thanks FL.

Perhaps I confused you. I don't believe Christianity is to easy. I'm saying perhaps new Muslim converts think its to easy, as in, they believe God would want them to conform and be subjected to strict rules. Where as Christianity doesn't really have that. We are free to pray whenever and however. We aren't forced to fast. We have grace. Etc.

Admittedly, I sometimes lack understanding of what it means to "come to faith". I've had faith in Christ since early childhood and although I've had times of rather embarrassing sinfulness, I've always claimed Christ as my saviour. I know this is a blessing, but also sometimes wish I knew what it was like to go from sinfulness to grace. I have grace and feel the effect of grace in my life. But I don't know what it's like to be on the outside. This is actually challenging at times. The only way I understand it sometimes is to observe lost people around me. So I don't actually know entirely what it's like to "give up control".

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Re: Islam ?

#51

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Thu Oct 16, 2014 2:51 pm

ryanbouma wrote:Perhaps I confused you.
No, it isn't you. I just jumped the gun.
ryanbouma wrote:I don't believe Christianity is too easy. I'm saying perhaps new Muslim converts think its to easy, as in, they believe God would want them to conform and be subjected to strict rules. Where as Christianity doesn't really have that. We are free to pray whenever and however. We aren't forced to fast. We have grace. Etc
I don't know any new Muslim converts. When I worked with prisonners (2005-2011 or so) some would tell me that conversion to Islam would happen in prison because converts got Halal food instead of the regular slop. But beware: prisonners are not known for truthfulness. I also saw a U.S. documentary describing the alarming growth of Islam within the prison population in that country. The problem I saw with the documentary is that they called Black Islam, Islam. (This is a very basic mistake, somewhat like assuming that Mormons are Christians.) Even so, there were enough converts to genuine Islam to warrant concern. Islam is a very violent religion when followed scripturally. A violent religion adopted by violent men will give legitimacy to their anger, at least that is the conclusion that I remember from the show.

B.W. still works with prisonners, so perhaps he can shed more light on this subject.
ryanbouma wrote:I've always claimed Christ as my saviour. I know this is a blessing, but also sometimes wish I knew what it was like to go from sinfulness to grace.
Be thankful you were saved early. A lifetime of rejoicing in sin leaves scars, even in saved persons like me.

FL :D
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

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Re: Islam ?

#52

Post by ryanbouma » Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:29 pm

Ok, so perhaps a fair conclusion to the question "why to atheists, Christians, jews, agnostics, etc. convert to Islam?" would be: Because Islam fullfills a human desire. Perhaps anger in the case of a prisoner. Structure in the case of someone who feels Christianity lacks structure. Maybe a place of belonging for someone feeling lost. Etc. But it's only a human desire, not a true fullness that can only come from Christ.

Would you agree with this assessment, or is there more to it?

BTW, thanks for all your responses throughout this thread. Very helpful. I get excited when I see a new post here. And I totally agree about the Jesus barbie. I'd hate to see the riots a Muhomed barie would cause :|

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Re: Islam ?

#53

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:11 pm

ryanbouma wrote:Ok, so perhaps a fair conclusion to the question "why to atheists, Christians, jews, agnostics, etc. convert to Islam?" would be: Because Islam fullfills a human desire. Perhaps anger in the case of a prisoner. Structure in the case of someone who feels Christianity lacks structure. Maybe a place of belonging for someone feeling lost. Etc. But it's only a human desire, not a true fullness that can only come from Christ.

Would you agree with this assessment, or is there more to it?
I can't really give you a sensible answer because I don't know any converts to Islam. I've listened to converts on YouTube explaining why they chose Islam but these always strike me as rationalizations after the fact. In other words, I doubt they are sincere.

The secretary where I work is a divorced woman in her 60s without many friends. She enjoys weekly visits from a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses where they chat, read the ''Bible'' and pray. I have told the secretary that JWs are not Christians and that they are reading a perverted version of the Bible. She listens to me but the desire for company and the pleasant weekly visits overcome her understanding that these people are spiritual perverts. ''They are such nice people,'' she says.

Maybe part of the explanation you are looking for is in the secretary's story...

FL y~o)
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

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Re: Islam ?

#54

Post by ryanbouma » Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:49 pm

I think that story is very applicable. Thanks.

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Re: Islam ?

#55

Post by abelcainsbrother » Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:45 pm

It has been awhile since I researched Islam and read the Quran.I had a friend that worked at a Hotel and knew muslims and she knew at the time I was wanting to research other religions,so she asked one of the muslims if she could borrow his Quran so that I could read it and he let her.He left a note in the front of it telling me not to bend the pages,etc and that in the middle east it is punishable by death.
It was a real Quran signed by a bunch of muslim clerics as an authentic Quran in English but as I started reading it I also noticed bible stories in it but what stuck out the most to me is how muslims could believe Mahammad over Jesus Christ who never performed a miracle like Jesus did and seemed to give excuses when people would ask him about it and in the Quran Allah tells Mahamad to repent of his sins,also I compared it to bible prophecy and the bible blew it away when it came to prophecies being right and having fulfilled prophecies.Also there is no assurance in Islam like in Christianity in Islam you are just told to submit and yet you have no assurance you're going to heaven.I returned it like new after I read it and no problem.But there is noway I could believe Mahammad over Jesus Christ.

I also went to a Hindu meeting because of my friend also who knew some Hindu's and I actually kinda liked it and the food was good but when they all gathered round a decorated gold looking box that had pictures of god's on it to pray and offer offerings I stood there and prayed to Jesus,but I liked the dance they did with the sticks where they go around in a circle and hit each others sticks with weird sounding hindu music being played and they were nice to me.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Islam ?

#56

Post by RickD » Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:58 am

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John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Islam ?

#57

Post by Philip » Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:46 pm

I've listened to converts on YouTube explaining why they chose Islam but these always strike me as rationalizations after the fact. In other words, I doubt they are sincere.
Um, don't they have any Islamic converts telling their touching story of how they converted so as to avoid a haircut from a sword-carrying barber: "Since you can't seem to decide about how much I should cut off, how's about me just taking a LOT off the top?" And, "Yes, yes, I know it won't grow back anytime soon, but you really won't have to worry about that once I'm done!" :shock: :esurprised: y:O2 :shock: :esurprised: y:O2 :shock: :esurprised: y:O2

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Re: Islam ?

#58

Post by Rob » Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:36 am

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:Ryan, here is the site of Ergun Caner, a former Muslim who came to faith in the Lord:

http://www.erguncaner.com

I don't visit the site often but I first heard of Dr Caner in 2004.

The site I gave you in my first post, http://www.fortressoffaith.org has a course - and materials for purchase - on how to approach Muslims with the Gospel.

Lastly, I recommend you read the links Philip has provided, and that you ask God for guidance in dealing with the unbelievers you encounter.

FL
Ok, so I know this is an old post and you all are probably well aware of this by now, but Dr. Caner is a proven liar. He cannot speak Arabic at all, was born in Sweden, lived in Ohio most of his childhood, etc. etc.
He has a good story and that makes this hard, but it is all lies.

If you want more on this, check out James White's (A frequent defender of reformed Christianity and debator) youtube channel and search for Ergun Caner.

https://www.youtube.com/user/DrOakley16 ... rgun+caner

There's a video where Dr. White has his Arabic tutor there listening to Dr Caner's "Arabic" sayings and it turns out that it's mostly just nonsense to to try and convince non-Arabic speakers.

This guy is a liar and refuses to come clean. We should not support his ministry at all.

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